Whorl Mail Archive

Volume 11

Archive of postings to the Whorl mailing list.

(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138 akt@attglobal.net Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:16:55
Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:54:08
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:47:53 PDT
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138 Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:29:34
(whorl) The secret of the inhumi [SPOILERS for IGJ] Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:38:58
Re: (whorl) The secret of the inhumi [SPOILERS for IGJ] Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:57:03
(whorl) Humans, inhumi and irony [mild SPOILERS] Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:59:39
(whorl) "Tall! Tall!" Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:14:21
(whorl) Spoiled "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:20:22
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n001 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:15:21 PDT
Re: (whorl) Spoiled Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:40:51
(whorl) Spoiler Space "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:14:28 GMT
Re: (whorl) RETURN TO THE WHORL Patri10629@aol.com Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:39:01 EDT
(whorl) The Silver Chair Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com> Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:11:15
(whorl) Symposium further details "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:15:31 GMT
(whorl) IGJ, impressions, riddles, many spoilers! (of course) "Dave Lebling" <dlebling@shore.net> Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:04:45
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002 "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:24:05 +0100
Re: (whorl) IGJ, impressions, riddles, many spoilers! (of "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@crossover.com> Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:05:04
(whorl) "Raymond Dann" <xury@hotmail.com> Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:53:37 GMT
Re: (whorl) Jack Lyons <revjack@radix.net> Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:14:32
(whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this? jismulkstis@att.net Mon, 31 Jul 2000 03:22:43 +0000
(whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc. "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:46:03
Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this? William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:30:48
Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this? William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:59:42
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002 William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:09:59
(whorl) The OBW / IGJ transition =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 1 Aug 2000 01:48:14
(whorl) Babbie and Horn =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 1 Aug 2000 05:41:55
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002 Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:46:42
Re: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc. "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@crossover.com> Tue, 01 Aug 2000 11:49:09
(whorl) Scylla as Mother "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:36:44
(whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This? akt@attglobal.net Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:43:44
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n006 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:07:16 PDT
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138 [SPOILERS] Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:01:17
Re: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc. [SPOILERS] Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:26:42
(whorl) Green Thoughts Joel Priddy <mossmail@yahoo.com> Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:46:36
(whorl) *De-Lurk* with some Theories/Questions Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com> Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:58:15
Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This? Patri10629@aol.com Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:13:34 EDT
Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This? Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:51:10
(whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:43:05
Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:56:33
Re: (whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:23:39
Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:18:10
Re: (whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:44:24
(whorl) Delurk + Comment stilskin@sff.net 3 Aug 2000 06:43:57
(whorl) Re: Blue not urth.......? (IGJ spoilers) "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:19:30 +0100
Re: (whorl) Re: Blue not urth.......? (IGJ spoilers) james.kellar@quantel.com Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:18:06 +0100
(whorl) Symposium Abstracts "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:35:59 GMT
(whorl) Scyllas I, II, III "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:08:01
(whorl) Gene Wolfe's Pants! stilskin@sff.net 6 Aug 2000 05:33:46
(whorl) IGJ Spoilers "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:07:06
(whorl) The missing chems Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists@danrabin.com> Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:28:01
Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts David Wells <ADW@ovum.com> Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:47:54 +0100
(whorl) Reviews and Wolfe's sales figures Ron Crown <crownrw@SLU.EDU> Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:59:49
(whorl) IGJ: Prediction and Question Dan Schmidt <dfan@harmonixmusic.com> 07 Aug 2000 11:09:19
Re: (whorl) Scyllas I, II, III "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:19:48
(whorl) More Green Thoughts SPOILERS "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:09:00
Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:17:24
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n011 "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:29:09 +0100
(whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:06:21
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n011 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Tue, 08 Aug 2000 10:03:41 PDT
(whorl) Silk's body or another? "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:03:08
(whorl) more Blue mysteries "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:18:13
Re: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:20:59
Re: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com> Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:45:05
(whorl) IGJ Thoughts Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14
Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 12:32:32
(whorl) RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue mysteries) "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:57:39
(whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012 "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:01:52
(whorl) IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's book] "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:03:05
Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:25:23
(whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk (2) Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:55:30
(whorl) In Green's Cover akt@attglobal.net Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:35:15
(whorl) Inhumi Secret Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:06:15
Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:55:59
Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:11:31
(whorl) IGJ: altar scene Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40
Re: (whorl) Silk's body or another? Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:29:04
Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:31:36
Re: (whorl) In Green's Cover William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:47:08
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n013 ansible@cix.co.uk (David Langford) Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:12 +0100 (BST)
(whorl) Gene Wolfe Symposium update "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:04:46 GMT
(whorl) IGJ thoughts SPOILERS "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:40:59
(whorl) A question, an observation stilskin@sff.net 10 Aug 2000 07:26:37
Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:45:41
Re: (whorl) IGJ thoughts SPOILERS Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:49:46
(whorl) Suicide Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:02:11
Re: (whorl) revised relativistic travel times Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:12:21
(whorl) another latecomer to the party finally finishes IGJ (spoilers) Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.com> 10 Aug 2000 10:35:42
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n014 "Christopher Culver" <new_sun@hotmail.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:04:19 GMT
(whorl) Peace (spoilers) "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:53:28
RE: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene "Urash, Tom" <turash@firstam.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:19:59
(whorl) light chiliad, my coin Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:39:12
Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:56:29
Re: (whorl) Suicide [SPOILER] Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:06:28
(whorl) Apologies stilskin@sff.net 10 Aug 2000 16:34:34
Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:50:27
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n015 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:02:19 PDT
(whorl) Typhon's Home: Pas as Neighbor "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:08:53
(whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:25:02
(whorl) Him? Them? shannon wilde <swilde_99@yahoo.com> Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:49:59
(whorl) Typhon's Duality "Seth Lombardi" <sethlombardi@hotmail.com> Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:05:16 CDT
(whorl) Re: Typhoon's Duality "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:25:11
(whorl) Clute's review of IGJ =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:42:30
(whorl) Clute's revelation David Lomax <dlomax@idirect.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:19:02
Re: (whorl) Clute's revelation Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:52:21
(whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:12:13
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018 "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 05:01:35
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018 Bjjp2@aol.com Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:10:58 EDT
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018 Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:30:25
Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:48:45
Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:00:20
(whorl) Re: Clute's review of IGJ Sheila Herndon <skherndon@yahoo.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:30:27
(whorl) The Revelation: John Clute to the Whorl list =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:10:36
(whorl) RE: The Revelation: John Clute to the Whorl list "Jim Henley" <jhenley@nas-corp.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:26:02
(whorl) Horn/Silk as inhumu Michael Purdy <mcp@jhu.edu> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:42:14
(whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation akt@attglobal.net Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:04:01
(whorl) Further outrage akt@attglobal.net Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:18:33
(whorl) RE: Clute's Review of IGJ <SPOILERS> "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:29:23
(whorl) Clute and other Questions stilskin@sff.net 17 Aug 2000 06:23:35
(whorl) Another message from Clute: read it in full! =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:12:58
(whorl) Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS> "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:10:46
Re: (whorl) Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS> "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:31:48
(whorl) Oreb/Pas stilskin@sff.net 17 Aug 2000 18:47:24
(whorl) Oreb and his gods Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:28:00
(whorl) Re: Timeframe of S/N Sun books; Oreb possessed "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 18 Aug 2000 01:34:03
(whorl) Re: Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS> "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Fri, 18 Aug 2000 05:47:39
(whorl) Brother and Sister "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:08:51
(whorl) Inhumi secret and horn/silk/inhumi related? David Lomax <dlomax@idirect.com> Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:25:31
(whorl) The beauty part akt@attglobal.net Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:16:17
(whorl) Re: the beauty part "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:02:42
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n022 akt@attglobal.net Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:18:17
(whorl) Re: time frames "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:25:54 +0100
(whorl) IGJ: Sinew Thoughts "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:00:08
(whorl) time frames and paternity Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:30:18
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n022 "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:04:57
Re: (whorl) Oreb/Pas Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:25:30
Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:25:58
Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:02 +0100 (BST)
Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:56:45
Re: (whorl) Typhon's Duality Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:23:28
Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation Patri10629@aol.com Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:40:10 EDT
(whorl) Limp biz (cut) akt@attglobal.net Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:44:05
(whorl) question about the secret Sheila Herndon <skherndon@yahoo.com> Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:47:49
(whorl) The Neighbourly inhumi =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:52:23
(whorl) Two Infernal Cities =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:54:49
(whorl) Last Call for Symposium "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:19:15 GMT
Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut) jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:27 +0100 (BST)
Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut) Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:36:26 +0200
(whorl) Symposium date reminder "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:19:26 GMT
(whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:16:28
Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:17:22
Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:26:35
(whorl) Re: Neighborly Inhumi; Oreb as God-Mount "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:34:19
(whorl) Horn as Inhumi and Silk as suicide? "Roberson, John" <RobersonJ@bek.com> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:26:36
(whorl) Rigoglio and Kim Il Sung =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:37:46
Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:07
Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net> Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:14:12
Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One? jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:19 +0100 (BST)
Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut) mark millman <millman@us.ncipher.com> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:07:18
(whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:35:08
Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:56:10
Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:44:48
Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:23:25
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n025 akt@attglobal.net Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:45:36
(whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:54:09
Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:03:07 +0100
Re: (whorl) Brother and Sister Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:03:00 +0100
(whorl) First impressions Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:56:02 +0100
Re: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:26 +0100 (BST)
(whorl) Odin and Mithra akt@attglobal.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:19:07
(whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n027 "Roberson, John" <RobersonJ@bek.com> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:10:21
(whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking) "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:46:13
Re: (whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking) Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:19:08 +0100
Re: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:26:31
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027 "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:33:34
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027 akt@attglobal.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:13:14
(whorl) Oreb-Scylla? stilskin@sff.net 23 Aug 2000 17:41:48
(whorl) Return to Whorl cover akt@attglobal.net Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:42:58
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027 Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:41:39
(whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking) "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:16:22
Re: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:48:43
(whorl) Re: Oreb, orbs ,and eight-legged thingies. "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:15:02
(whorl) Re: Babbie; Scylla; Oreb in the Night Chough "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:31:30
(whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:26:02
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n029 "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:29:29
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027 William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:02:39
Re: (whorl) Re: Oreb, orbs ,and eight-legged thingies. William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:37:06
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n029 "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:23:34
Re: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:46:18 +0100
(whorl) Oh, no, not a Sex Secret! (pronoun problem) akt@attglobal.net Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:29:07
(whorl) Or maybe something insectoid "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:54:48
RE: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex "james jordan" <jbjordan@gnt.net> Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:52:58
(whorl) Report on the Gene Wolfe Symposium Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com> Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:15:54
(whorl) Re: sex secret "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:09:44
Re: (whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n027 Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:47:17
(whorl) Blue/Green orbits, and other things Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:56:24
(whorl) Inhumi secret again David Wells <ADW@ovum.com> Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:08:09 +0100
(whorl) Between worlds: inhumi-powered flight "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:44:50
Re: (whorl) Between worlds: inhumi-powered flight Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:31:26 +0100
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032 "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com> Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:25:27 PDT
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032 akt@attglobal.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:59:21
(whorl) Night Chough akt@attglobal.net Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:01:37
(whorl) Re: changelings "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:36:11
Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032 Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl> Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:14:39 +0200
(whorl) The Anatomy of Melancholy Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:28:24
(whorl) Horn/Babbie OBW and IGJ More Sinew/Krait Thoughts "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Thu, 31 Aug 2000 18:43:30
(whorl) Inhumu feeding/breeding cycle "Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com> Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:48:41 EDT
(whorl) The Secret stilskin@sff.net 1 Sep 2000 05:31:02
(whorl) 358 years Paul C Duggan <pduggan@world.std.com> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:57:14
(whorl) From Green to Blue if you're a goose: some numbers "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:41:52
(whorl) Blue Breeders "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:09:37
(whorl) The Night Chough (Redux, Rebuttal) "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:01:53
(whorl) vampires rocket from Green to Blue Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:46:21
(whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1) "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:47:47
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n034 ansible@cix.co.uk (David Langford) Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:44 +0100 (BST)
Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1) "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:42:15
(whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE "Urash, Tom" <turash@firstam.com> Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:16:23
Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1) Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:46:11
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n034 "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:16:30
(whorl) Re: Why Sinew isn't Krait "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:11:56 +0100
(whorl) Re: Why Sinew isn't Krait "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:42:27
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n035 Jeffrey Meyers <jeffmeyers@earthlink.net> Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:34:14
Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:59 +0100 (BST)
Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl> Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:13:30 +0200
(whorl) Horn's astral Journey to Nettle "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:05:09
(whorl) Blue Breeders II "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:56:35
(whorl) A fishy incident from OBW stilskin@sff.net 4 Sep 2000 13:36:32
Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute) Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:15 +0100 (BST)
(whorl) More questions while rereading OBW "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:19:06
Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1) Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:55:26
(whorl) Scylla (wet) "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:21:03
Re: (whorl) vampires rocket from Green to Blue "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:25:08
(whorl) The passage quoted by Endymion9 stilskin@sff.net 5 Sep 2000 11:51:22
(whorl) Re: Horn's astral Journey to Nettle David Wells <ADW@ovum.com> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:26:03 +0100
(whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:48:45
(whorl) Re: Scylla (wet) & Re:The passage quoted by Endymion9 "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:10:22
(whorl) Oddz, Endz "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:39:44
Re: (whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl> Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:19:46 +0200
(whorl) Seawrack Dan Schmidt <dfan@harmonixmusic.com> 06 Sep 2000 09:56:34
(whorl) Orbital mechanics Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:40:40
Re: (whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com> Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:18:11
Re: (whorl) Seawrack Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:27:09 +0100
(whorl) Re:Seawrack "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:42:11
(whorl) An O, Wow moment akt@attglobal.net Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:37:20
Re: (whorl) An O, Wow moment William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:02:47
Re: (whorl) Seawrack matthew.malthouse@guardian.co.uk Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:08:25 +0100
(whorl) Silk the Precursor? =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:08:50
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n039 "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net> Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:52:57
(whorl) Seawrack's Real Name "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:51:10
Re: (whorl) Seawrack's Real Name Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk> Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:13:58 +0100
(whorl) Re: Seawrack's Real Name "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:39:09
Re: (whorl) Seawrack's Real Name William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net> Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:36:07
(whorl) Rereading IGJ and of course having more questions "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:55:57
(whorl) Re: Endymion9's IGJ Questions "Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com> Sat, 09 Sep 2000 22:34:30 EDT
(whorl) Re: Endymion's question (or: He ain't heavy, I'm my brother.) "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:58:18
(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n041 akt@attglobal.net Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:40:49
(whorl) Rereading IGJ notes (part 2) "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:52:33
(whorl) Oreb Defense, mostly shannon wilde <swilde_99@yahoo.com> Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:55:26
(whorl) Return to the Whorl: Early Predictions "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:29:00
(whorl) Hartwell his prophecy =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:16:37
(whorl) Oreb & Scylla Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:32:29
(whorl) More IGJ reread thoughts "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:32:48
(whorl) Fava's age "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com> Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:43:08


From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:16:55 

Said Wombat, entirely correctly:

> Remember that Silk was genetically programmed to be an exceptional
leader.
> Once Horn took over Silk's body, he apparently gained that ability,
too,
> which is why the Gaonese made him Rajan, swore eternal loyalty to him,
and
> so forth.
>
> Before his "death", Horn can't buy a break. After his rebirth, he's a
> demigod. Whatever genes Silk had, they're the pure product.

Indeed. And there's the extraordinary physical prowess, the ability with
a sword. The DNA in the physical body took care of that.

But, too, Horn has been touched by the angels (and I do realize how
revoltingly prime-time TV this sounds). They have given him the ability
to bond with an inhuma to complete"astral travel" and to do what seems
like "magic tricks" with his sword etc. when he is there. I think that
Horn/Silk/ [maybe Sev too?] can do some magic tricks even when *not* in
projection, though one of you completists will have to prove it since
I'm comatose.

-alga


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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:54:08 

Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:
> 
> I haven't made up my mind about this one... Is Wolfe saying that *all*
> inhumi have essentially human spirits, or that some get to that point after
> extensive (and friendly) contact with humans? Or is contact with *Silk*
> necessary? (After all, we have only two points of evidence...)

That last possibility hadn't occurred to me, but it's an intriguing one,
and seems quite possible in view of Horn's special relationship with
inhumi.  (He also has a special relationship with the Neighbors, as well
as with at least one hus, one night chough and whatever Seawrack is: he
really gets around.)

--Adam

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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:47:53 PDT

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Alex David Groce wrote:

>1.  The inhumi's secret (maybe) becomes a little clearer, in some
>aspects:  Krait's _mother_ drank from Sinew, and I believe it may be
>that when the inhumi spawn their children take their spirit (in some
>sense) from (a particular, I assume) victim of the parent.

I don't think that's the case.  I do think it has become a bit clearer, 
although not crystal clear yet.  And unfortunately, all evidence seems to 
point to the "Do Unto Others Theory" as being extremely likely to being "the 
secret."
>
>5.  The parallels with Severian are growing stronger and more
>interesting: (1) Horn(/Silk) is now "accidentally" enacting sacraments
>(the Eucharist at the Neighbors' table is my favorite scene from IGJ);
>(2) he has his own sword; (3) he's actually been mistaken for a
>torturer (we're reminded that a Patera's costume is not unlike that of
>a torturer).

And that he seeminly subconsciously reshapes his black sword into a 
Torturer's sword, presumably because of the aspects of Severian/the 
Conciliator/The Outsider that were part of Silk and are now merged with 
Horn.

Fernando Q. Gouvea <fqgouvea@colby.edu>

>I haven't made up my mind about this one... Is Wolfe saying that *all*
>inhumi have essentially human spirits, or that some get to that point after
>extensive (and friendly) contact with humans? Or is contact with *Silk*
>necessary? (After all, we have only two points of evidence...)
>
>The inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might
>conjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in
>Green wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are
>closer.

I think it's a combination of things.  One, their spirits are at least 
partially comprised of whatever they're feeding on.  When Jahlee(? I've had 
about five hours of sleep in the past few days, so my memory's a little hazy 
at this point, and a marathon reading session didn't help, but I'm pretty 
sure it was Jahlee and not Fava) is asked by Horn what the inhumi who fed on 
the Neighbors would have been like, she says "Wonderful," or something to 
that effect.  Also, I believe that both Fava and Jahlee are striving to be 
good "people," to overcome their inherently bad nature, like Severian (and 
Silk and Horn, for that matter), so that their true spirits are human or 
very close to it, rather than reptilian in nature.

>Another question: if the inhumi eventually become close copies of those
>they prey on, shouldn't the inhumi be fighting among themselves now? After
>all, this characteristic of humanity is strongly emphasized in the book.

Great question...

Alga wrote:
>Subject: Does Horn Know He is Silk?
>
>I think he does and he doesn't. Horn practically worshipped Silk as a
>boy, wrote a book about him, has invested much of his life in
>perpetuating his myth and doesn't feel up to "walking in his shoes." He
>knows that it is his--Horn's--personality in this body, however much
>Oreb may squawk. Nevertheless, parts of Silk are left, just as you can
>never erase a program completely from your computer.

It's also pretty apparent that he knows he's in Silk's body.  The people in 
Gaon thought he was Silk and that's why they made him their ruler;  people 
on cities all over Blue and Green think he's Silk;  Oreb calls him Silk, 
etc.  He makes disingenuous comments that he's not Silk, that Oreb's 
confused, etc.  However, this is clearly meant in the spiritual sense, and I 
don't think he's entirely right there.  Horn spends a great deal of time in 
OBW talking about how he's the only one who doesn't know where Silk is.  And 
we know why now -- as the female neighbor said, his spirit was dying and she 
puts him in Silk's body.  But, even though Horn seems to have picked up some 
incredible powers that Silk/Severian/The Conciliator had, he doesn't think 
he is Silk.  And, in a sense he's not, exactly, so he's truthful when he 
says he isn't.  He's also a humble person, and doesn't think he can measure 
up to Silk, even though his personality has become merged with Silk/Pas/The 
Outsider/The Conciliator/The Autarch/Severian and he is measuring up.

Nicholas Gevers wrote:
>
>I've mentioned this before, but now that many people
>have read IGJ, perhaps I can get more comment: I
>strongly believe that Horn's visit to Nessus takes
>place at the same time as the opening chapter of THE
>SHADOW OF THE TORTURER. Clue: Horn and company need to
>be guided into the Citadel, so the guard at the
>Citadel's gate, Badour, abandons his post to accompany
>them; when Severian and his friends try to return to
>the Matachin Tower in Chapter One of SHADOW, they find
>the guard gone, with no explanation for his absence.
>Very probably, Horn missed meeting the apprentice
>Severian by only a short time. I should add that in
>his NOVA EXPRESS interview (1998), Wolfe said that THE
>BOOK OF THE SHORT SUN would "take us into the world of
>Severian's childhood"; it seems certain that just this
>has happened.

Thanks so much, Nick.  I felt this, but couldn't put my finger on it.  
They're in Nessus right before the Sun goes out.  The Duko recognizes his 
house, but it's collapsed and has been for some time, so the Colony ship is 
long gone.  The people that Horn and company encounter, the guard, the 
omophage, the lochage, are those from Severian's time.  I wonder why Horn 
didn't encounter Severian, though.  Severian certainly seemed to encounter 
himself often enough in one form or another throughout TBOTNS.

And now something of my own...

The only complaints that I have about IGJ are due to Wolfe's insanely good 
writing ability.  For a book entitled "In Green's Jungles," we get very 
little of Green's jungles.  He continues to hint around (maddeningly) the 
Inhumi secret.  And, other than the very brief scene we get when the 
Neighbor female puts his spirit in Silk's body, we get nothing at all, 
really, about the Whorl.  It's gonna be a long seven months until the final 
book...

I was also a bit curious why Horn screws around with Hide so much.  You'd 
think a loving father would tell his son who he is rather than wait for him 
to figure it out...  That puzzled me a bit.

Narwhal
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:29:34 

Narwhal said:

>I was also a bit curious why Horn screws around with Hide so much.  You'd 
>think a loving father would tell his son who he is rather than wait for him 
>to figure it out...  That puzzled me a bit.

I think it's the same reason why the Neighbors won't tell Horn about
their gods: it's better if he comes to figure it out for himself (with
some hints).

That the Neighbors aren't completely forthcoming seems not so much to
suggest (as Adam speculated) that they believe each race should stick
to its own gods as that they believe the Outsider (by whatever name
they know Him) is in the process of revealing Himself to Horn as it
is, and that it isn't their place to, say, disillusion him about Pas.



--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) The secret of the inhumi [SPOILERS for IGJ]
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:38:58 

Josh Levitan wrote:
> 
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> 
> Alex David Groce wrote:
> 
> >1.  The inhumi's secret (maybe) becomes a little clearer, in some
> >aspects:  Krait's _mother_ drank from Sinew, and I believe it may be
> >that when the inhumi spawn their children take their spirit (in some
> >sense) from (a particular, I assume) victim of the parent.
> 
> I don't think that's the case.  

I don't think Alex's theory is the secret either, although it may be
true.  I don't see why the inhumi would see Alex's theory as more of a
weapon against themselves than the fact that they draw their nature from
what they feed on, which Krait told Horn without demanding he take a vow
of secrecy. (82)

>I do think it has become a bit clearer,
> although not crystal clear yet.  And unfortunately, all evidence seems to
> point to the "Do Unto Others Theory" as being extremely likely to being "the
> secret."

I don't think so.  As said above, Krait tells Horn freely that the
inhumi  take the nature of those they feed on, and Horn tells us,
whereas he remains coy about the secret.  And "Do Unto Others" is a
merely a logical (if impractical) deduction from this, moreover one that
Horn has explicitly stated.  So neither of these are the secret.

On the other hand, when Hide responds to Horn's socratic questionin:
"'They really do make themselves just like we are....Only they couldn't
do it if they didn't have us to copy.'" Horn replies "'I'd scarcely
hoped to take you this far without violating an oath, which I will not
do.'" (351)  This does suggest that the secret lies in this area (it
also suggests that Horn underestimates Hide's intelligence as much as he
does Sinew's character).

There are some other clues as to the secret in IGJ that I've noticed.

1. The inhumi believe that the secret is a weapon against them, but Horn
believes it is "a weapon too heavy for our [human's] hands." (125) 

2. The Neighbors knew the secret, but were themselves unable to "wield
it." (125)  So "wielding" the secret can't mean depriving the inhumi of
all intelligent blood for a period of time, since the Neighbors could
have done that by "going away" temporarily at any time before the humans
arrived.

3. The secret, along with the inhumi's desire to absorb humans' natures,
explains why they drink blood. (82)

4. The secret is somehow connected with "what had happened almost twenty
years ago" (presumably Krait's mother feeding on Sinew) (82).

5. Krait feels he has to tell Horn the secret before he dies. (82)

Maybe somebody else can put these clues into a pattern better than I
can.

--Adam

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) The secret of the inhumi [SPOILERS for IGJ]
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:57:03 

Preserving spoiler space (didn't on my last post, sorry)

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Adam said:

>I don't think Alex's theory is the secret either, although it may be
>true.  I don't see why the inhumi would see Alex's theory as more of a
>weapon against themselves than the fact that they draw their nature from
>what they feed on, which Krait told Horn without demanding he take a vow
>of secrecy. (82)

Sorry if I gave the impression I think this is the secret.  I don't, but I
think that your point 4:

>4. The secret is somehow connected with "what had happened almost twenty
>years ago" (presumably Krait's mother feeding on Sinew) (82).

is somehow crucial--I don't think we have enough to figure out the
secret, but I'm betting the mother feeding on Sinew is at the heart of
the explanation.

Perhaps if we can put together all the chronology of the Neighbors
relationship with the inhumi that we have we can come up with
something more specific.



--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) Humans, inhumi and irony [mild SPOILERS]
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:59:39 

Josh Levitan wrote:
> 
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> >*SPOILER SPACE*
> When Jahlee(? I've had
> about five hours of sleep in the past few days, so my memory's a little hazy
> at this point, and a marathon reading session didn't help, but I'm pretty
> sure it was Jahlee and not Fava) is asked by Horn what the inhumi who fed on
> the Neighbors would have been like, she says "Wonderful," or something to
> that effect.

I think you're thinking of this dialogue from the last chapter, where
just after Jahlee has argued that she is human inside:

	   "What about the inhumi who destroyed the vanished people, 	Jahlee? 
Were they human too?"
	   "They were dead before I was born." (376)

Jahlee doesn't recognize the irony of Horn's question (or if she does,
she doesn't mention it), and I missed it too on my first reading.  But
what Jahlee should have said was "See?  That proves we're human!"  I'm
sure that from the author of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS this irony is
intentional.

--Adam

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From: Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com>
Subject: (whorl) "Tall! Tall!"
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:14:21 

It arrived today. Hooray! Finally, I've got my own copy of IGJ. Thank you,
Amazon...

Given that, as well as apparently being half a dozen other people, Horn is
in some sense Odysseus, am I going to discover why it was/is/will be that
nobody recognised him when he finally returned home to Ithaca/Lizard? I
imagine that he didn't look himself any more.

I know that GW has said that TBotNS was in some ways influenced by
Pilgrim's Progress, but has anyone else noticed a vaguely Bunyaneque
flavour to the extremely odd (and not particularly attractive) cover
picture for IGJ?

(Reads) "I have paper again..."

Wonderful!

Nigel

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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Spoiled
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:20:22 

A favor, please? Or at least a suggestion. It's awfully annoying
scrolling through all that SPOILER SPACE stuff, plus it takes up space
in the archives, which can be hard to load as it is. Can we just be
grown-ups and assume that anyone reading the Whorl list right now has to
assume caveat lector (hmm, that's not quite right, is it, maybe postor
would be more like it?) .

-alga



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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n001
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:15:21 PDT

>From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
>
>I think it's the same reason why the Neighbors won't tell Horn about
>their gods: it's better if he comes to figure it out for himself (with
>some hints).

As far as Hide is concerned, it's logically better for him to figure out who 
Incanto is.  However, from an emotional standpoint, this makes little to no 
sense.  This is a guy who's been apart from most of his family for a couple 
of years now, lost an adopted son, lost his real son, etc.  So, you'd think 
he'd just come out with it...  Does make for suspenseful reading, though.
>
>That the Neighbors aren't completely forthcoming seems not so much to
>suggest (as Adam speculated) that they believe each race should stick
>to its own gods as that they believe the Outsider (by whatever name
>they know Him) is in the process of revealing Himself to Horn as it
>is, and that it isn't their place to, say, disillusion him about Pas.

Their reluctance to talk about their own gods goes beyond that.  They don't 
even want to confirm or deny that the Mother was their sea goddess.  In that 
case, Horn did figure it out for himself.

>
Adam Stephanides wrote:

>I think you're thinking of this dialogue from the last chapter, where
>just after Jahlee has argued that she is human inside:
>
>	   "What about the inhumi who destroyed the vanished people, 	Jahlee?
>Were they human too?"
>	   "They were dead before I was born." (376)
>
>Jahlee doesn't recognize the irony of Horn's question (or if she does,
>she doesn't mention it), and I missed it too on my first reading.  But
>what Jahlee should have said was "See?  That proves we're human!"  I'm
>sure that from the author of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS this irony is
>intentional.

Well, that's a good point.  But I was actually referring to the other 
dialogue, earlier, I believe, when he asked her what it would have been like 
for the Inhumi that fed on the Neighbors, and she replies "It must have been 
wonderful."

One other thing.  I know that Horn and the folks on Green discuss this, but 
it didn't make much sense to me (perhaps the lack of sleep, again).  How did 
Quetzal and company get aboard the Whorl?  It wasn't from flying there -- 
the distance was too great.  And the humans theorize that some of the 
landers left and came back up, but Mainframe tells them otherwise.  And Horn 
says that he believes that that particular information was well-intentioned, 
but wrong.  So did the Inhumi reprogram Mainframe?  This would be hard with 
their lack of tool-wielding ability.  Did their slaves on the Whorl do it?

Narwhal
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Spoiled
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:40:51 

Alice Turner wrote:
> 
> A favor, please? Or at least a suggestion. It's awfully annoying
> scrolling through all that SPOILER SPACE stuff, plus it takes up space
> in the archives, which can be hard to load as it is. Can we just be
> grown-ups and assume that anyone reading the Whorl list right now has to
> assume caveat lector (hmm, that's not quite right, is it, maybe postor
> would be more like it?) .

I've been including the spoiler space because everybody else has and
nobody's objected till now, but I'm dubious of its utility.  It's
useless for those who get the digest, unless it's in the final message
of the digest; and on my email program at least, those who get
individual messages are safe as long as there's a spoiler warning in the
subject line.  Is there anyone out there who hasn't read IGJ and finds
the extra layer of protection given by the spoiler space vital?

--Adam

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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Spoiler Space
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:14:28 GMT

Well my copy of IGJ hasn't arrived yet (in the UK) but Nigel Price 
informs me that his has at least been dispatched. Now that it has 
actually been released I think we can all dispense with spoiler 
space on Whorl. I've just stopped reading here until I've had a 
chance to read it.

And Paris was wonderful.

Correctathon and further details of the Symposium will follow ASAP.

Jonathan
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Editor, Ultan's Library
An electronic journal for the study of Gene Wolfe
http://www.english.bham.ac.uk/ultan
email: J.M.Laidlow@bham.ac.uk

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From: Patri10629@aol.com
Subject: Re: (whorl) RETURN TO THE WHORL
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:39:01 EDT

Lupes,

Actually saw the copy corrected Ms. last saturday.

It was wrapped in plastic like Laura Palmer.

The author assures me that he proofed it Sunday, July 23, 2000.

I can say no more. On my 4th read of IGJ and holy moley.

So. It is in The Pipe, guys and gals.

Your pal,

Patrick O'Leary

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From: Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com>
Subject: (whorl) The Silver Chair
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:11:15 

Currently reading the Narnia books to my younger daughter as bedtime
stories, I've been struck several times by vaguely Lupine echoes or, at
least, "prefigurings" in Lewis' narratives. A while back I read "Prince
Caspian" while rereading OBW, and wondered whether the account of the
children's rediscovery of the ivy covered ruins of Cair Paravel on the
mysterious island contributed to GW's account of the ruined buildings of
the Neighbours which Horn explores on the island where he falls in the pit,
or in the forest near Gaon.

No, far too vague and general a parallel, I concluded, for all that GW
openly acknowledges his admiration for Lewis' books.

But in "The Silver Chair" this evening, the following line particularly
caught my eye. Puddleglum is speaking...

        "Now a job like this -  a journey up north just as winter's
beginning, looking for  a Prince that probably isn't there, by way of a
ruined city that no one have ever seen - will be just the thing." (The
Silver Chair, ch 5, p70 in the Puffin edition).

Of course, the lost city here is called Harfang rather than Pajarocu, and
the journey to Pajarocu takes Horn west rather than north...

Yes, well, all right, it's not a close parallel, I agree, but it made me
smile.

Does anyone agree with me that the tame lion in GW's "Operation Ares" is a
deliberate parody of cum homage to Lewis' Aslan?

Nigel

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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Symposium further details
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:15:31 GMT

Hi folks,

I will post the three abstracts of Symposium papers on the list next 
week. I'm still waiting for Peter Wright's proposal, although I do 
have an idea of what he'll be doing (its on Fifth Head and post-
colonialism).

As for publishing them - there is obviously a place for them  in the 
Winter edition of Ultan's Library, depending on any contributions we 
receive from other writers, but I'm exploring avenues for publishing 
the papers as a small book. Obviously the latter course is more 
exciting!

I do hope that we can muster enough support for a substantial 
second edition of the journal. I'm thinking about including a short 
'Notes & Queries' section, in which specific points (possibly 
explored on Urth/Whorl) can be discussed. Nigel has also 
suggested that a full commentary on the Book of the New Sun 
would be a desirable project (and a long one!) which could perhaps 
evolve as a feature of the journal.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Jonathan
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Editor, Ultan's Library
An electronic journal for the study of Gene Wolfe
http://www.english.bham.ac.uk/ultan
email: J.M.Laidlow@bham.ac.uk

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From: "Dave Lebling" <dlebling@shore.net>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ, impressions, riddles, many spoilers! (of course)
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:04:45 

I finally got the book and the time to read it (had to put aside the new
Harry Potter, which has its own attractions as my children have now both
read it first and want to talk about it).

Some of the things I noticed have already been covered (what an astute and
careful-reading bunch!).  Some, like Horn's arrival at the Citadel on the
day _Shadow of the Torturer_ starts, I thought no one would get, and was
itching to report first, but no...

We get a surprising amount of throw-away detail in this book.  One item that
struck me particularly was Horn's tale of his and Nettle's early years on
Blue.  In OBW we got the "story of our life I tell around the dinner table
to the family." It's told in the slightly whitewashed family-legend style,
and we heard it so often I just accepted it.  In IGJ we get the harder-edged
details, the hardship, the failures, the fights with the relatives (and all
this is very understated as well -- it must have been hell to live through
it), but included is the throwaway about how the colonists produced their
first generation of livestock, the twisted flower of a seed planted in
Mucor's life history in the Long Sun books.

The funny thing about IGJ is that as I read it the book as whole didn't come
into focus, partly because it didn't seem to be progressing what I thought
of as the plot (fool!).  I expected, having been given the _Odyssey_ in book
one, to get (sneaky Wolfe) the _Iliad_ in book two, or maybe the _Anabasis_.
That is to say, the war against the inhumi. Instead, we get a different and
apparently irrelevant war (but one won by a clever trick, so there's the
_Iliad_ poking up).  In any event, just sitting here reflecting on it after
reading the first batch of posts, it's a much much more wonderful book than
it seemed as I was reading it, and it hangs together incredibly well
considering the latticework narrative structure.  It's full of little
set-pieces and scenes that are wonderful, as is typical of Wolfe.  (An
aside: everyone has noticed the parallel with the eucharist in the scene at
the Neighbor's altar.  What about the parallel with Abraham and Isaac?  Horn
has been muttering about how Oreb would make a great sacrifice, or maybe a
horse, mutter, mutter... Then he takes Hide up the mountain to the altar...
and serves communion. There's your whole bible-study course in a nutshell.)

The big questions:

1) What have we learned about the secret of the inhumi?

First, the inhumi derive their intelligence and personality from the
creatures they feed on, and almost certainly can pass them on to their
offspring. We know the former from any number of examples, and we may infer
the latter from Krait's mother's drinking Sinew's blood. As inhumi are
apparently oviparous (Fava's story), we may discount the possibility of _in
utero_ influence.

Second, and more importantly (and here we are getting close to the true
secret), there are actually no inhumi.  There is only, poignantly, "a girl
trapped in the body of a blood-drinking reptile."  The inhumi only have
"spirits" because their victims have spirits, only have intelligence because
their victims have intelligence, and so on. Crucially, they also have the
goodness or evil of their victims, their moral sense.  Jahlee describes the
pursuit of Horn at the end of OBW, and how the inhumi all felt they should
kill him, but each hoped that another would do it first.  They feel this way
out of gratitude and also, I think, because the people whose blood they have
absorbed would not be quick to kill either. Few are eager to cast the first
stone, sinful or not.  Result, Horn escapes.

Perhaps the secret is that if the inhumi are treated justly, treated as we
would like to treat other human beings, they will gradually become less of a
threat.  This has been hinted at on several occasions. Krait asks, "why do
you hate me?" and when Horn responds with responses about inhumi in general,
asks "did I do those things?"  I think there is a similar scene with Jahlee
in IGJ.  I don't mean this idea to be a reprise of the "Golden Rule" theory,
but rather a "Rule of Law" theory.  If humans treated inhumi as though they
were human, as individuals who can be reformed or punished or rewarded based
on their own actions, they would act in a more moral manner.  Horn describes
the Neighbor's history briefly, and the implication is that the inhumi were
enslaved by the Neighbors, but it didn't help, it only made things worse.
They were unleashed on the Neighbor inhabitants of Blue, but that only made
things worse. Horn sees that as a possible future for humanity as well, and
on Green it is coming true; the villages capture other humans to sell to the
inhumi as slaves.

Does anyone other than me see a strong parallel to racism and African
slavery here?  (Though at times the inhumi are the stand-ins for Africans
and at other times it's the humans).  One could write an entire essay on
this one aspect of the book.  It's understated but everywhere.

2) Where is Silk and what's up with Horn/Silk?

This one is clear.  Silk is Horn (half a spirit) and Horn is Silk (half a
spirit plus a body).  However, Silk is also "an aspect of Pas."  But Horn is
also only half of Silk (in some unit of measurement appropriate for the
task), so he doesn't claim to be Silk, though sometimes he is, and is
becoming more like him, just as the inhumi are human and for similar reasons
(if using a less messy mechanism).  Horn/Silk was kidnapped by the Gaonese
(on the _Whorl_) because they thought he was Silk (I think this is
explicitly stated in OBW). Also, the Gaonese had a working lander which made
multiple trips to the _Whorl_ (Inclito's telling of Eco's story).  (What
happened to it?)  Many people on the _Whorl_ knew and could identify Silk,
so the Gaonese got the right man.

Some of Horn's powers are given by the Neighbors: he can find or create a
path in OBW, he draws the sword to himself during his sewer-cleaning
expedition, so this is not either a function of his merger with Silk or of
being in a dream in the later segments.  Reshaping the sword may be a
dream-only function. Besides, it's not dreaming, it's astral projection.  It
happens in current time, affects those involved whether fellow-projectors or
not, etc.  The Neighbors can do it, the inhumi can do it if Horn is around
(and Horn is a friend of the Neighbors). Could it be purely a Neighbor
ability?  Obviously Fava and Jahlee are frightened by it, it's not a normal
inhumi thing, like flying.

I think Horn is slow to reveal himself to Hide because he no longer looks
like himself, and wants Hide to come to the conclusion on his own.  It's
difficult enough at first for Hide to go along with the "pretend I'm your
father" thing.  If Horn had said, "I _am_ your father," Hide would have
freaked out.  Horn pushes all the clues out, and lets Hide do it himself.
(There's a lot of this in the book.  It happens with Mora, too.  I wonder if
Wolfe does this a lot in his real life?  Must have been very frustrating for
his children.)

Horn reverences Pas partly out of inertia, partly because Pas is now
Passilk, with a helping of the enlightened Silk, and hence worthy of some
reverence.

More to come, when I get time.

    -- Dave Lebling
        (aka vizcacha)



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From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:24:05 +0100

Hi, I'm new to the list contribution-wise, although I've been listening (&
learning) for a while now.
Finally my copy of IGJ has arrived, and I've been able to read all the
recent posts, so I thought it might be worth asking a question which I don't
think anyone has got around to discussing yet.

No-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in Horn
between the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still
wallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether he
should be writing his book.  At the start of IGJ this has disapppeared, and
throughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks (very much
in the manner of Silk...).  As the time lapse between the end of writing the
end of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think there are
hints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this transformation?
Could it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the woods
before Horn meets brother and sister?

"I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees.  I could not
see him, it was too dark to see anything.  But I knelt beside him, and lay
my head upon his knee, and he comforted me."(OBW p.378)

At first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ Horn says
he hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body.  It could
also be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose.  Any ideas?


Ian


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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@crossover.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ, impressions, riddles, many spoilers! (of
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:05:04 

At 12:04 PM 7/29/00 -0400, vizcacha wrote:
>Second, and more importantly (and here we are getting close to the true
>secret), there are actually no inhumi.  There is only, poignantly, "a girl
>trapped in the body of a blood-drinking reptile."  The inhumi only have
>"spirits" because their victims have spirits, only have intelligence because
>their victims have intelligence, and so on. 

I don't think this point has been made here: The inhumi seem specifically
to be telepathic reptiles tht developed their telepathy to enhance their
predation. It seems likely that the assumption of human characteristics is
a side-effect of this telepathic ability. I can't tell if they are capable
of true shape-shifting; their ability to pose as humans is certainly
enhanced by, and may be completely, telepathic projection. Note that this
does *not* seem to be part of what Krait told Horn on Green, since Horn
doesn't realize this until he sees the camouflaged hunters in Goan. 

It seems that Incanto's travel between worlds is a combination of the
inhumi telepathic projection and the Vanished People's indeterminate reality. 

>Jahlee describes the
>pursuit of Horn at the end of OBW, and how the inhumi all felt they should
>kill him, but each hoped that another would do it first.  They feel this way
>out of gratitude and also, I think, because the people whose blood they have
>absorbed would not be quick to kill either. Few are eager to cast the first
>stone, sinful or not.  Result, Horn escapes.

Well, also, the inhumi are strongly biologically conditioned not to kill
their prey. In "nature", they will feed on a victim repeatedly over the
course of years rather than kill. If the inhumi surrounding the Rajan at
the end of _Blue_ have not fed from killers, they will not have "learned"
how to kill, themselves. 

>Perhaps the secret is that if the inhumi are treated justly, treated as we
>would like to treat other human beings, they will gradually become less of a
>threat.  ... Horn sees that as a possible future for humanity as well, and
>on Green it is coming true; the villages capture other humans to sell to the
>inhumi as slaves.

I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all
humans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist to the
secret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has overdelivered
on every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's capable of
overdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi as well. 

(The telepathic predator reminds me of a minor humorous Larry Niven short
story, "The Nonesuch". Spoiler: The Nonesuch is so powerfully telepathic
that when its human prey sees it and thinks, "The Nonesuch isn't real! It's
a fairy-tale", the beast disappears.)

>Horn pushes all the clues out, and lets Hide [figure it out] himself.
>(There's a lot of this in the book.  It happens with Mora, too.  I wonder if
>Wolfe does this a lot in his real life?  Must have been very frustrating for
>his children.)

I don't know Wolfe well enough in person to judge that at all, but note how
thoroughly he does it to his readers. :-) 

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: "Raymond Dann" <xury@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) 
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:53:37 GMT

I have a quick question. Why did Silk agree to become a part of Pas? Is 
there an explanation in the Long Sun books? Just wondering.

Thanks,
Raymond Dann
________________________________________________________________________
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From: Jack Lyons <revjack@radix.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl)
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:14:32 

Raymond Dann <xury@hotmail.com> writes:

I have a quick question. Why did Silk agree to become a part
of Pas? Is there an explanation in the Long Sun books? Just
wondering. 

Two heads are better than one?

-- 
_________________
revjack@radix.net



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From: jismulkstis@att.net
Subject: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this?
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 03:22:43 +0000

Hello.  I've not posted before, but I've read all of the 
New/Long/Short Sun books written to date.  I've also read 
all of the Urth/Whorl archives.   Mr. Wolfe creates 
wonderful worlds.

I have to wonder whether you all are making life more 
difficult for him.  Does he read these archives? Does 
anyone know whether any of his writing has ever been 
influenced by fan speculation?  Specifically, has he ever 
revised a story due to someone having guessed a plot or 
plot twist?  I wonder what kind of secret the inhumi 
could have that hasn't already been speculated upon here. 

I'd hate to write a 12 book series with all of you folks 
second guessing my every keystroke.

Thank you all for the stimulation and speculation.  And 
thank you, Gene Wolfe.  More than once, you've taken me 
from the E train (Queens to Manhattan) into strange and 
true worlds.

Joseph I. Smulkstis (Muskrat)

PS: Nutria, I'm not ripping you off.  I was a muskrat fan 
before I knew you existed.  I'm pleased to share your 
habitat.

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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc.
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:46:03 


> From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>

Hi Ian, and welcome,

> No-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in
Horn
> between the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still
> wallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether
he
> should be writing his book.  At the start of IGJ this has
disapppeared, and
> throughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks
(very much
> in the manner of Silk...).  As the time lapse between the end of
writing the
> end of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think
there are
> hints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this
transformation?
> Could it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the
woods
> before Horn meets brother and sister?

No, I think it is, as has been discussed quite recently, Horn's transfer
to Silk's body, with Silk's powerful gene-spliced leadership DNA having
an effect on those he encounters. I'm not quite sure from your post that
you have finished IGJ--this will become clearer.

> "I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees.  I
could not
> see him, it was too dark to see anything.  But I knelt beside him, and
lay
> my head upon his knee, and he comforted me."(OBW p.378)
>
> At first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ
Horn says
> he hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body.  It
could
> also be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose.  Any ideas?

It is Babbie speaking here. It is probably Horn's fever-dream, but maybe
not. Babbie is going to turn up again in the third volume (thank
goodness, I missed him) and we'll know more.

Hi Wombat,

> At 12:04 PM 7/29/00 -0400, vizcacha wrote:
> >Second, and more importantly (and here we are getting close to the
true
> >secret), there are actually no inhumi.  There is only, poignantly, "a
girl
> >trapped in the body of a blood-drinking reptile."  The inhumi only
have
> >"spirits" because their victims have spirits, only have intelligence
because
> >their victims have intelligence, and so on.
>
> I don't think this point has been made here: The inhumi seem
specifically
> to be telepathic reptiles tht developed their telepathy to enhance
their
> predation. It seems likely that the assumption of human
characteristics is
> a side-effect of this telepathic ability. I can't tell if they are
capable
> of true shape-shifting; their ability to pose as humans is certainly
> enhanced by, and may be completely, telepathic projection. Note that
this
> does *not* seem to be part of what Krait told Horn on Green, since
Horn
> doesn't realize this until he sees the camouflaged hunters in Goan.

They are shapeshifters only to a degree and I don't think it's fully
"telepathic." Remember three things: They cannot change their density; a
careful upclose look, especially at their limbs and hair by someone who
knows what to look for, will give them away; they are cold-blooded and
cannot fake otherwise. Horn has been given the ability to know them
almost at once, but Fava and Jahlee are very careful not to get too
close to any human. This is somewhat important to the plot.

> It seems that Incanto's travel between worlds is a combination of the
> inhumi telepathic projection and the Vanished People's indeterminate
reality.

Again, I discount "telepathy," except on an elementary level--"charisma"
might be more like it. This is a gift from the Vanished People, I think,
and meant, in some mysterious manner, to bring humans and inhumi
together, since neither can do it alone. (Though I guess the VP can.)

> >Jahlee describes the
> >pursuit of Horn at the end of OBW, and how the inhumi all felt they
should
> >kill him, but each hoped that another would do it first.  They feel
this way
> >out of gratitude and also, I think, because the people whose blood
they have
> >absorbed would not be quick to kill either. Few are eager to cast the
first
> >stone, sinful or not.  Result, Horn escapes.
>
> Well, also, the inhumi are strongly biologically conditioned not to
kill
> their prey. In "nature", they will feed on a victim repeatedly over
the
> course of years rather than kill. If the inhumi surrounding the Rajan
at
> the end of _Blue_ have not fed from killers, they will not have
"learned"
> how to kill, themselves.

No, you really can't say that. Horn had to clean the sewers, with
thousands of people dead from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and
I don't think it was.

> I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all
> humans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist
to the
> secret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has
overdelivered
> on every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's capable of
> overdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi as well.

I don't quite follow. But your second sentence has been brought up over
and over on the list, and I still think it is too simplistic. So sue me.

Asked Raymond:
>
> I have a quick question. Why did Silk agree to become a part of Pas?
Is
> there an explanation in the Long Sun books? Just wondering.

We have absolutely, positively no proof that he did. This was only a
conjecture of the pre Horn/Pas Horn that it MIGHT have happened.

Welcome, Muskrat, and don't be scared of Nutria--his fangs are mostly
for show:

> I have to wonder whether you all are making life more
> difficult for him.  Does he read these archives?

No.

-alga


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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this?
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:30:48 

At 3:22 AM +0000 7/31/00, Joseph I. Smulkstis (Muskrat) 
<jismulkstis@att.net> wrote:

>Hello.  I've not posted before, but I've read all of the
>New/Long/Short Sun books written to date.  I've also read
>all of the Urth/Whorl archives.   Mr. Wolfe creates
>wonderful worlds.

I think you may have hit upon one of the few statements that everyone 
who reads this list can agree on. <g>

>I have to wonder whether you all are making life more
>difficult for him.  Does he read these archives? Does
>anyone know whether any of his writing has ever been
>influenced by fan speculation?  Specifically, has he ever
>revised a story due to someone having guessed a plot or
>plot twist?  I wonder what kind of secret the inhumi
>could have that hasn't already been speculated upon here.

I seem to recall that someone who seemed to know said that Wolfe did 
read this mailing list, at least occasionally, but I can't find the 
message. If we are making life tough for Wolfe, it's his own fault; 
we're not holding a gun to his head forcing him to create all these 
tricky little puzzles and put them in his books, after all. <g> I 
very much doubt Wolfe has ever been influenced by fan speculation in 
the way you suggest. I doubt any of his readers (whether in this list 
or not) have ever guessed any but the most obvious plot twists. And 
even if one of us has and posts it to this mailing list, how many of 
Wolfe's potential readers are we affecting? Not a very high 
percentage, I would guess.

>I'd hate to write a 12 book series with all of you folks
>second guessing my every keystroke.

Actually, this list has only been around long enough to second guess 
the last Long Sun book and the Short Sun books, I think.

>Thank you all for the stimulation and speculation.  And
>thank you, Gene Wolfe.  More than once, you've taken me
>from the E train (Queens to Manhattan) into strange and
>true worlds.

For the minuscule part I may have played in the "stimulation and 
speculation," you're welcome.

-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe read this?
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:59:42 

At 11:30 PM -0400 7/31/00, William Ansley wrote:
>At 3:22 AM +0000 7/31/00, Joseph I. Smulkstis (Muskrat) 
><jismulkstis@att.net> wrote:
>
>>I have to wonder whether you all are making life more
>>difficult for him.  Does he read these archives?  upon here.
>
>I seem to recall that someone who seemed to know said that Wolfe did 
>read this mailing list, at least occasionally, but I can't find the 
>message.

At 10:46 PM -0400 7/31/00, Alice Turner wrote:
>  > I have to wonder whether you all are making life more
>>  difficult for him.  Does he read these archives?
>
>No.

alga,

I bow to your superior knowledge in these matter and stand corrected.

-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:09:59 

At 6:24 PM +0100 7/30/00, Ian Smith wrote:
>No-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in Horn
>between the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still
>wallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether he
>should be writing his book.  At the start of IGJ this has disapppeared, and
>throughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks (very much
>in the manner of Silk...).  As the time lapse between the end of writing the
>end of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think there are
>hints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this transformation?
>Could it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the woods
>before Horn meets brother and sister?
>
>"I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees.  I could not
>see him, it was too dark to see anything.  But I knelt beside him, and lay
>my head upon his knee, and he comforted me."(OBW p.378)
>
>At first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ Horn says
>he hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body.  It could
>also be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose.  Any ideas?

Actually, Adam Stephanides noted the change:

At 10:29 AM -0700 7/23/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:
>The Horn of OBW resembles the non-apotheosized Severian: someone who
>feels strongly, suffers greatly, and is very human, to the point of
>being unsympathetic.  The Horn of IGJ is much more like Silk in more
>than a physical sense; he's clearly a good man, and a dispenser of
>wisdom and good counsel, while humbly insisting all the time that he is
>no such thing.  I have to admit that as a protagonist I prefer the first
>model to the second.

And, in response, I made a speculation much like yours:

At 11:40 PM -0400 7/23/00, William Ansley wrote:
>I agree that the Horn that narrates OBW seems to be significantly 
>different from the Horn that narrates IGJ. This makes me wonder what 
>happened to cause the change. It seems to me that it may have 
>something to do with the very odd section towards the very end of 
>OBW where Horn's identity seems to become confused with Babbie's and 
>Horn meets the little boy and girl who are named Brother and Sister. 
>I readily admit that I didn't understand the section of OBW at all 
>and that I am disappointed that it wasn't explicated at all in IGJ.

I think the section of the book that you quote from is probably 
important, perhaps only because it is so incomprehensible. I hope 
that we will receive a little more help in teasing out what is really 
going on here in RttW, but I don't expect much help if any will 
actually be forthcoming.

Then before I got around to posting this message, alga replied to the 
the same message:

At 10:46 PM -0400 7/31/00, Alice Turner wrote:
>No, I think it is, as has been discussed quite recently, Horn's transfer
>to Silk's body, with Silk's powerful gene-spliced leadership DNA having
>an effect on those he encounters. I'm not quite sure from your post that
>you have finished IGJ--this will become clearer.
>

alga,

I think you are missing the point here. The writer of both OBW and 
IGJ is the same version of Horn, the one that has come back from _The 
Whorl_ looking a lot like Silk, however he got that way. But his 
narrative voice differs considerably, at least to me and Adam and 
Ian, from the first book to the second. So whatever happened to cause 
that change (if the change is real) had to happen between (or close 
to) the end of OBW and the beginning of IGJ.

-- 
William Ansley

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) The OBW / IGJ transition
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 01:48:14 

One important clue to why IGJ starts out in a
different, much more positive mood than Horn was in at
the end of OBW can be found, naturally enough, in
Chapter 1 of IGJ: the encounter with Cugino. It's not
only that Cugino's friendly helpfulness restores some
of Horn's confidence in the potentiality for human
goodness, a small demonstration that Horn
psychologically multiplies; more, Cugino's crafting of
a staff for Horn symbolises the possibility of the
liberation of humanity (the tree) from the oppression
of the inhumi (the creeper). I suspect that this
unobtrusive scene can help illuminate the secret of
the inhumi; it certainly lifts Horn's spirits considerably.

__________________________________________________
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Babbie and Horn
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 05:41:55 

Ian Smith:

> "I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under
the trees. I could not see him, it was too dark to see
anything. But I knelt beside him, and lay my head upon
his knee, and he comforted me." (OBW p.378)>

> At first I thought this was another Neighbor
encounter, but in IGJ Horn says he hasn't encountered
them since they moved him to a new body. It could
> also be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I
suppose. Any ideas?

And then alga:

It is Babbie speaking here. It is probably Horn's
fever-dream, but maybe not. Babbie is going to turn up
again in the third volume (thank goodness, I missed
him) and we'll know more.

And now me: When I read OBW, I was under the
impression that the Horn / Babbie transference was a
trick the Neighbors pulled to allow Horn to escape the
inhumi; the latter have no interest in a hus, and
would become confused. Of course, if the Neighbors are
responsible, they are acting remotely, so Horn isn't
really "encountering" them.

__________________________________________________
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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:46:42 

William said:

>alga,

>I think you are missing the point here. The writer of both OBW and 
>IGJ is the same version of Horn, the one that has come back from _The 
>Whorl_ looking a lot like Silk, however he got that way. But his 
>narrative voice differs considerably, at least to me and Adam and 
>Ian, from the first book to the second. So whatever happened to cause 
>that change (if the change is real) had to happen between (or close 
>to) the end of OBW and the beginning of IGJ.

I agree with this strongly.  In my opinion the change stems at least
partly from something (fairly) simple: Horn is no longer ruling a city
"as Silk."  Horn is freed to become something more like a holy man
precisely because he is no longer in the false position of officially
_being_ Silk.  Horn's reluctance to identify himself with a man he
sees as, unlike himself, good is key to his actually becoming a very
good man himself.  Another couple of things: (1) he's come very close
to death by the inhumi--Wolfe's characters always grow quite a bit
when they willingly face death and (2) I think he's much more at peace
now that he's without his concubines and is being faithful to Nettle
(and Seawrack!)


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@crossover.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc.
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 11:49:09 

At 10:46 PM 7/31/00 -0400, Alga wrote:
>They are shapeshifters only to a degree and I don't think it's fully
>"telepathic." Remember three things: They cannot change their density; a
>careful upclose look, especially at their limbs and hair by someone who
>knows what to look for, will give them away; they are cold-blooded and
>cannot fake otherwise. 

Casting back, I seem to remember something in _Blue_ about the inhumi
changing shape to travel between the worlds. So they probably do *really*
shapeshift mildly. But I think the projective telepathy is real; Incanto's
discussion of watching an inhuma die indicates that there's something more
than just physical shapeshifting going on. 

That said, the projective telepathy is far from perfect; that's obvious.
They emulate their prey, but not well enough to fool someone who knows what
to look for. 

>No, you really can't say that. Horn had to clean the sewers, with
>thousands of people dead from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and
>I don't think it was.

I don't think it was a dream, either. But I think that the inhumi of the
City killed lots of humans not deliberately but out of exhaustion--they
reflect the cruelty visted on them by the Vanished People and work (and
drain) their humans to death, but do not necessarily set out to murder them. 

>>I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all
>>humans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist
>>to the secret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has
>>overdelivered on every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's
>>capable of overdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi 
>>as well.

>I don't quite follow. 

I think that throughout the narrative of _Long Sun_ and _Short Sun_, Wolfe
has set up narrative expectations. He then, pretty consistently, has
fulfilled those expectations in ways that, I feel, surpassed expectations. 

Wolfe has spent a tremendous amount of narrative energy building up the
"secret  of the inhumi". I have a hard time believing the secret is
anything we could guess. Hence, I think that the secret encompasses the
idea that humans can rid themselves of the threat of the inhumi by acts of
loving kindness, but I have faith that it involves something much bigger. 

>But your second sentence has been brought up over
>and over on the list, and I still think it is too simplistic. So sue me.

You'll be hearing from my lawyer. 


-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Scylla as Mother
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:36:44 

Safely on the ground again, but backpedaling from an earlier position, I'd
like to now toss out the following notion: is it possible that the entity
Horn and Seawrack call the Mother is actually Typhon's daughter Scylla? For
starters Wolfe gives her additional gloss in his Proper Names in the Text,
reminding us that Scylla, in addition to being a frequent haunter of
Incanto's dreams, is "a sea-monster of the Red Sun Whorl"; why provide this
information if it's not to have some future bearing? Secondly, in the first
of Incanto's dreams, Scylla is pictured *in red* (IGJ, 59). Compare this to
the Mother's first appearance in OBW, 153: "The top of the speaker's head
broke the water, and she rose effortlessly until the oily swell reached no
higher than her waist. Like the face of Kypris seen in the glass of General
Saba's airship it remains vivid today, the streaming form of a cowled woman
robed *in pulsing red,* a woman three times my own stature at least, with
the setting sun behind her." Horn subsequently sees what may be the Mother
descending into an underwater ship, and Seawrack, when asked earlier by Horn
about the boat she's come from, has responded, "Down there." Plus there are
numerous times in OBW where Horn compares the Mother directly to Scylla:
e.g., "Soon I was to gaze upon the sea goddess of the Vanished People.
*Perhaps she was Scylla in another form,* as Silk once confided to me that
Kypris was becoming another form of the Outsider." (156) Also: "Having the
sea, as we in Old Viron did not, the Neighbors had also a goddess of the
sea. She may have been their water goddess as well, as Scylla is at home; I
cannot say." (157)

This lends itself to a number of intriguing possibilities, of course.
Perhaps Scylla, like the Whorl's Cargo, has made it to Blue, where in a
specially-designed-and-decanted body, she's attempting to exert new control
over her former worshippers, perhaps even knowing about the coming merger of
Passilk/Horn. Perhaps as well her pre-Whorl counterpart back on Urth has
played a part in the nuturing of Seawrack, whose "real" mother, we've been
told, has drowned--could this have been during the tidal havoc wrought by
the coming of the New Sun? (Getting Seawrack to Blue may be no problem if
the Neighbors possess--as they seem to do--mirror-transport technology.)
Doubtless, in RTTW, we'll find out more, but for the moment I'd like to
suggest this as an alternative to Horn's
she-must-be-the-sea-goddess-of-the-Vanished-People supposition.

Robert Borski





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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This?
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:43:44 

From William:

At 10:46 PM -0400 7/31/00, Alice Turner wrote:
>>  > I have to wonder whether you all are making life more
>>>  difficult for him.  Does he read these archives?
>
>>No.

> I bow to your superior knowledge in these matter and stand corrected.

Well, my knowledge is pretty limited, but from what mantis and Patrick
(both of whom seem to be in hibernation) have told us, Wolfe doesn't
even use email. Many people his age do sometimes use email but get
flustered by the Web (i.e. checking archives, etc.). It's true that his
background would seem to make him more comfortable with technology, but
in my own experience with older writers
they can get crankily technophobic no matter what their background.
There is also the strange m/f thing that someday I will write a little
piece on.

-alga



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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n006
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:07:16 PDT

Kevin J. Maroney wrote (quoting Alga):

>At 10:46 PM 7/31/00 -0400, Alga wrote:
> >They are shapeshifters only to a degree and I don't think it's fully
> >"telepathic." Remember three things: They cannot change their density; a
> >careful upclose look, especially at their limbs and hair by someone who
> >knows what to look for, will give them away; they are cold-blooded and
> >cannot fake otherwise.
>
>Casting back, I seem to remember something in _Blue_ about the inhumi
>changing shape to travel between the worlds. So they probably do *really*
>shapeshift mildly. But I think the projective telepathy is real; Incanto's
>discussion of watching an inhuma die indicates that there's something more
>than just physical shapeshifting going on.
>
>That said, the projective telepathy is far from perfect; that's obvious.
>They emulate their prey, but not well enough to fool someone who knows what
>to look for.

But it's a mostly physical change.  Horn tells Mora (and again, my poor 
addled brain can't remember the exact passage, and I'm too lazy to dig out 
the book and get a cite) that the inhumi mold their faces like clay, and 
then use makeup and wigs to cap off the illusion.  That's a big part of how 
she can recognize inhumi (especially if it's a kid or a man wearing makeup). 
  And we get eyewitness descriptions of the inhumi changing their arms into 
wings as well, a definite physical change.  The telepathy, or magic, or 
whatever you call it, probably just rounds out the physical stuff, and they 
can apply that at will (like when Krait let Horn see him like an inhumi, not 
as a boy).

>
> >No, you really can't say that. Horn had to clean the sewers, with
> >thousands of people dead from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and
> >I don't think it was.
>
>I don't think it was a dream, either. But I think that the inhumi of the
>City killed lots of humans not deliberately but out of exhaustion--they
>reflect the cruelty visted on them by the Vanished People and work (and
>drain) their humans to death, but do not necessarily set out to murder 
>them.
>
> >>I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all
> >>humans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist
> >>to the secret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has
> >>overdelivered on every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's
> >>capable of overdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi
> >>as well.
>
> >I don't quite follow.
>
>I think that throughout the narrative of _Long Sun_ and _Short Sun_, Wolfe
>has set up narrative expectations. He then, pretty consistently, has
>fulfilled those expectations in ways that, I feel, surpassed expectations.
>
>Wolfe has spent a tremendous amount of narrative energy building up the
>"secret  of the inhumi". I have a hard time believing the secret is
>anything we could guess. Hence, I think that the secret encompasses the
>idea that humans can rid themselves of the threat of the inhumi by acts of
>loving kindness, but I have faith that it involves something much bigger.

I hope it is something much bigger.  Besides, I don't see how being kind to 
one another or to the inhumi would be a weapon "too heavy to wield," as Horn 
puts it.

Narwhal
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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138 [SPOILERS]
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:01:17 

Josh Levitan wrote:
> When Jahlee(? I've had
> about five hours of sleep in the past few days, so my memory's a little hazy
> at this point, and a marathon reading session didn't help, but I'm pretty
> sure it was Jahlee and not Fava) is asked by Horn what the inhumi who fed on
> the Neighbors would have been like, she says "Wonderful," or something to
> that effect.

I found the passage.  It's actually Fava and not Jahlee, and her exact
reply is "'I've wondered about that.  It must have been marvelous. 
Miraculous...For them [the inhumi], I mean.'" (214)  She seems to be
referring to the powers the inhumi would have acquired from the
Neighbors, not to any moral improvement, and the context of the
conversation supports this (Horn goes on to suggest that present-day
inhumi may have retained a trace of these powers).  And if Horn is
correct in his conjecture (and so far it is only a conjecture) that the
Neighbors enslaved the inhumi, the inhumi would be unlikely to remember
the Neighbors as especially benevolent or spiritual, although they seem
that way to us.

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc. [SPOILERS]
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:26:42 

Alice Turner wrote:

> Asked Raymond:
> >
> > I have a quick question. Why did Silk agree to become a part of Pas?
> Is
> > there an explanation in the Long Sun books? Just wondering.
> 
> We have absolutely, positively no proof that he did. This was only a
> conjecture of the pre Horn/Pas Horn that it MIGHT have happened.

I can't find the spot now, but iirc somewhere in IGJ Horn says "Silk is
now an aspect of Pas," or words to that effect.  He doesn't say it as a
conjecture, but as something definite.

Even if it happened, though, Silk didn't necessarily agree to it.  His
personality could have been uploaded into Mainframe without his consent.

--Adam

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From: Joel Priddy <mossmail@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Green Thoughts
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:46:36 

Ahoy, ahoy,

I thoroughly enjoyed IGJ, and have since thoroughly
enjoyed catching up on the discussion here. Here's my
two cents...


The Inhumi Secret:
Although I wish it were otherwise, I left IGJ with the
distinct impression that the Golden Rule was the
secret of the inhumi. All of the business with inhumi
feeling that they were human spirits caught in vampire
bodies, and wanting nothing more than to be fully
human, seemed to be leading up to it (Although I guess
it's significant that Jahlee can't give up her little
love-nips when in Nessus). But the clincher was when
Horn is talking to Hide about the inhumi, and Jahlee
interrupts him at some point, and basically states the
Golden Rule thing , and Horn replies with "I wasn't
going to say that, and I never would say that." Which
I take to mean that saying it would break his oath.

Although maybe he would never say that because he
thinks its a silly idea too, but that wasn't how I
read it.

Also, one of the earlier convincing arguments against
the Golden Rule being the secret was that it was
impractical to employ, and IGJ states several times
that the secret is impractical. Unwieldy, as it were.

Oh, and then there's the whole Eucharist thing... I
rolled my eyes when I first read the scene. It seemed
to me that Wolfe was getting a little lazy and too
direct when it came to the Catholic references. But it
just occurred to me to project it onto the inhumi.
Humans participate in a pretend blood-sharing ritual
to pretend to be closer to Divine Nature. Inhumi
participate in a real blood-sharing ritual in order to
really participate in human nature. So they become a
degraded parallel to our own striving for Grace, which
is accomplished via the Golden Rule.

Much of IGJ seems to be about showing us that the
inhumi are worthy of charity. We see that Horn's
relationship to Krait wasn't the exception brought on
by Krait being Sinewy, but could be the rule. If Horn
can just keep adopting inhumi...

Reverence of Pas:
I don't think we can be thinking about Pas as being
just a disembodied Typhon anymore. We all know that
power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely, but it seems that divine power makes you
indistinguishable from God, and therefore you sorta
become a part of God. Kypris is a precedent here, but
Wolfe stories are full of things imitating things so
well that they become what they were imitating. Time
turning our lies into truths, and such. This, plus the
possible addition of Outsider-inspired Silk into his
system may make Pas an entity worthy of reverence. 

Oreb in the dream projections:
I'm sorry, but I just can't stop think of Heckel and
Jeckel (sp?), the cartoon birds. No matter how I try
to picture Oreb during his feathered dwarf episodes, I
can't get past cartoon imagery. In  my weaker moments
I even picture him with the stub of a cigar and
three-fingered gloves.


cephalothorax

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From: Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) *De-Lurk* with some Theories/Questions
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:58:15 

First thanks to all on this list and the Urth list.  I
devoured all I could while waiting for IGJ.

Two theories:
Regarding the the cryptic passage near the end of OBW,
I believe this to be a 'forest god' of the neighbors
and thought that Horn/Silk/Rajan told the children
about the encounter with the gods of the neighbors
just after that episode.  Horn was 'comforted' by the
encounter just as the mother comforted and raised
Seawrack.

Regarding the transformation of the narrative between
OBW and IGJ, I believe this ties into the identity of
the narrator/protagonist.  It appaears from some of
the clues that we've been given that Horn's spirit at
the instant of his death was loaded into Silk's body
at the height of Silk's despair over the death of
Hyacinth.  In fact it appeared to me that Silk was
covered in blood and was alone after conducting
Hyacinth's final sacrafice or funeral rites.
Two characters fused at their very lowest points.  Add
to this Horn's possible realization upon fusion that
the Silk of his boyhood was just a man and now a
depressed and despondent man, possibly in self-denial
and I see OBW as occurring and being written as
Horn/Silk struggle with the identity question and the
depression and despair following each of their
failures, Horn's on Green and Silk's (as yet unseen)
in the Whorl.  
In fact, I think that OBW and IGJ can be seen as
therapy with IGJ being written as the narrator is
coming to terms with their lives, divided in the past
but joined for the future.
I don't think this is taken so I'd like to use the
handle "Emrys" (hoping that there's a Welsh colony
somewhere in the Whorl.
Emrys


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From: Patri10629@aol.com
Subject: Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:13:34 EDT

I'm on vacation in colorado, Alice, and Mantis's don't hibernate, they enter states of prolonged torpidity like hummingbirds.

But, Roger, Wolfe knows about us, and does not have email.  The late Joe Mayhew used to copy and print out various Wolfe discussions--Genie, i think. 

Just reread OBW and IGJ--they just get better and better.

best,

Patrick O'Leary

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Does Gene Wolfe Read This?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:51:10 

"Technophobia" or whatever, evidence does not seem to indicate that
Wolfe would be better off spending his time surfing the net or reading
email.  I say, if his net-free state produces stuff like this, keep
the man offline!

--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:43:05 

I had earlier posted a list of the clues regarding the inhumi's secret I
had found in IGJ.  I just came across one I'd overlooked.  I also came
up with a fairly wild speculation as to what the secret might be, at
least in part.  It's probably wrong, but it might at least spark some
thought.

The new clue is on p. 21.  The Neighbor, who is fetching Horn to have
him clear the sewer on Green of human corpses, tells him that "'We want
to wake all of you up....To your safety,'" at which Horn tells us: "Now
that I understand Krait's secret, I understand his remark as well; but
at the time I had no notion of what he meant."  It could be that the
Neighbor is simply alluding to the united-we-stand idea Horn had
advanced in OBW, but it could also be he has something more specific in
mind.  What this might  be I have no idea, but I can't help suspecting a
connection with Horn's later talk with Hide in which he uses the
corpse-filled tunnel as an example of how the inhumi's victories over
humans make them weaker.

Now for the wild speculation.  What if we take "inhumi are killers
because humans are killers" a step further?  What if the choice of
specific victims is determined by humans' conscious or unconscious
desires?  That is, when an inhumus/a attacks a human, it's because some
other human consciously or unconsciously wants the victim to die.

One advantage of this theory is that it's the only thing I can think of
which could serve as a weapon against the inhumi (whether wieldable or
no), explains why the inhumi drink human blood, *and* connects with
Krait's mother feeding on Sinew.  This last bit works out rather nicely,
in fact.  On p. 157 Horn has a "flashback" to Krait's death on Green,
which leads him to recall that Krait's mother had nearly killed Sinew;
he then, seemingly irrelevantly, tells Mora the story of how Nettle's
being pregnant with Sinew cost her and Horn the animal they should have
had, and so contributed to their extreme poverty; made worse by the need
to buy milk for Sinew.  In such circumstances, Horn may well have wished
the baby Sinew dead.  (One could go further and speculate that Horn's
belief that Sinew wishes him dead is a projection of Horn's guilt over
this.)  My hypothesis also fits neatly with one of the themes of OBW and
IGJ: that the inhumi are cruel, but no more so than humans are to each
other. 

I freely grant that there is no positive evidence for this speculation
whatsoever, and that I have no clear idea of the mechanics.  There are
other problems too: it's dubious whether this passes the test of being a
weapon the inhumi would think that humans could use (by not wishing each
other dead).  It doesn't fit Horn's remarks in OBW that if "the weapon"
were used, the inhumi would be stupid but remain dangerous.  It has no
apparent relation to the new clue above.  And if it's correct, it would
make Krait's telling Horn the secret an act of sadism.  Still, it seems
worthwhile to explore all alternatives (after all, the obvious guesses
have all proved fatally flawed).  And I can't help thinking that it
works too well in some respects for there not to be something in it.

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:56:33 

Joel Priddy wrote:
> 
> The Inhumi Secret:
> Although I wish it were otherwise, I left IGJ with the
> distinct impression that the Golden Rule was the
> secret of the inhumi. [snip] But the clincher was when
> Horn is talking to Hide about the inhumi, and Jahlee
> interrupts him at some point, and basically states the
> Golden Rule thing , and Horn replies with "I wasn't
> going to say that, and I never would say that." Which
> I take to mean that saying it would break his oath.

The actual passage is:

	   "You sell your own kind to us for weapons and treasure,"
	she told him [Hide] almost apologetically, "and your cruelty
	and the more numerous you are, the crueler and more violent you
	are.  Your cruelty and your violence strengthen us."
	   ...
	   "Ask this man you call your father.  He'll tell you."
	   I said, "He hasn't, and he won't." (380-81)

But in fact Horn has told Hide that human cruelty and violence
strengthen the inhumi, in his discussion of why they shouldn't kill
Jahlee. (354)  So what Horn won't tell Hide must be something else,
perhaps Jahlee's deterministic view of human nature.  And since Horn has
told it, it can't be the secret.

--Adam

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:23:39 

>Now for the wild speculation.  What if we take "inhumi are killers
>because humans are killers" a step further?  What if the choice of
>specific victims is determined by humans' conscious or unconscious
>desires?  That is, when an inhumus/a attacks a human, it's because some
>other human consciously or unconsciously wants the victim to die.
>
>One advantage of this theory is that it's the only thing I can think of
>which could serve as a weapon against the inhumi (whether wieldable or
>no), explains why the inhumi drink human blood, *and* connects with
>Krait's mother feeding on Sinew.  This last bit works out rather nicely,
>in fact.  On p. 157 Horn has a "flashback" to Krait's death on Green,
>which leads him to recall that Krait's mother had nearly killed Sinew;
>he then, seemingly irrelevantly, tells Mora the story of how Nettle's
>being pregnant with Sinew cost her and Horn the animal they should have
>had, and so contributed to their extreme poverty; made worse by the need
>to buy milk for Sinew.  In such circumstances, Horn may well have wished
>the baby Sinew dead.  (One could go further and speculate that Horn's
>belief that Sinew wishes him dead is a projection of Horn's guilt over
>this.)  My hypothesis also fits neatly with one of the themes of OBW and
>IGJ: that the inhumi are cruel, but no more so than humans are to each
>other.

I think you may have something here. But surely, "not wishing each 
other dead" is included within the Golden Rule?

-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:18:10 

At 10:46 AM -0700 8/2/00, cephalothorax  (Joel Priddy 
<mossmail@yahoo.com>) wrote:

>Oreb in the dream projections:
>I'm sorry, but I just can't stop think of Heckel and
>Jeckel (sp?), the cartoon birds. No matter how I try
>to picture Oreb during his feathered dwarf episodes, I
>can't get past cartoon imagery.

Of course! I knew that Wolfe's description of the "dream Oreb" 
reminded me of something. I bet it's deliberate; Wolfe has used 
cartoon imagery more than once before.

>In  my weaker moments
>I even picture him with the stub of a cigar and
>three-fingered gloves.

Now you're being silly. Cartoon birds don't wear gloves! But I 
remember the cigar.

"I say old bean, Silk good!"

William Ansley



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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) The inhumi's secret: another clue and a speculation
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:44:24 

William Ansley wrote:

> I think you may have something here. But surely, "not wishing each
> other dead" is included within the Golden Rule?

The Golden Rule includes it, true, but is more stringent.  Not wishing
your neighbor dead is sort of the minimal program to the Golden Rule's
maximal program.  (Although if unconscious wishes count, that
complicates things.)

But yes, if this is the secret, then in giving all these hints about "if
only we loved each other," Horn was coming awfully close to violating
the spirit, if not the letter, of his oath.  So that's another point
against my hypothesis.

--Adam

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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Delurk + Comment
Date: 3 Aug 2000 06:43:57 

Hi all!

I've enjoyed lurking about for the last few months and reading everyone's take on this supremely fascinating and frustrating writer!

Regarding a comment by Emrys:

>In fact, I think that OBW and IGJ can be seen as 
>therapy ...

I recently saw Wolfe at Readercon on a panel about writing as therapy.  He had some interesting if generalized things to say, the most memorable of which was that he preferred to "stay down in the basement with the demons" rather than seek some sort of therapeutic "cure" (whatever that would entail; I don't mean to speculate) through his writing.  I would speculate, however, that for Wolfe the act of writing has less to do with therapy (in its degraded contemporary sense) and more with a spiritual struggle towards an understanding and communication of religious faith.

Anyway, I'm glad of those demons in the basement, and hope he doesn't exorcise them any time soon!

Falcon (if it's not taken, that is!)


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From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Blue not urth.......? (IGJ spoilers)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:19:30 +0100

Thank-you all for your suggestions re: the change in narrative voice between
OBW and IGJ, and especially William for making the reply I hadn't got round
to sending on Alga's comment.  The scene I quoted from the end of OBW
certainly deems relevant, be it an encounter with a god, babbbie or
whatever.

Another question to which I (perhaps naively) do not have the answer.  Has
the 'blue=urth, green=lune' theory been discounted by everyone now?  I know
that the evidence is turning against it at the moment, but it's such a
delectable idea I don't want to let it go unless I have to.  Unfortunately
all the evidence I find points in the other direction.  One thing I've
noticed which definitely weighs against the theory is Wolfe's definition of
the Red Sun Whorl as "the distant planet on which Rigoglio was born", but is
it possible Wolfe is simply being obtuse as he is when dealing with
definitions of 'Incanto', 'Rajan', 'Horn' and 'Silk'?  Could the distance be
in time?  When I reached the red sun chapter I hunted madly through it for
reference to anyone recognising 'lune' as 'green' or similar, without joy.
In fact, we get the narrator saying "I look up at the stars then...but I
could not find Green there, or Blue, or the Whorl, or even the
constellations Nettle and I used to see..."(349).  Ok, so he could be in a
different hemisphere....did Mantis ever work out the phase of the moon on
the night Severian rescued Vodalus in the necropolis?  Does anyone have
anything which can resurrect the theory?

And on a (possibly related) matter.

Robert wrote

I'd like to now toss out the following notion: is it possible that the
entity
Horn and Seawrack call the Mother is actually Typhon's daughter Scylla?

I agree that if it the Mother was just plain Long-Sun Scylla, she'd probably
announce it loudly and do unpleasant things to any humans she encountered,
but I love the idea that we could be talking about Typhon's daughter here.

But why does Wolfe have two Scylla's in his stories, and why make the
reference to the origional Scylla in the glossary?  I suppose the two
possible explanations to the first question are either 1) Long-Sun Scylla is
named for Scylla on urth, or 2) Urth-Scylla is Typhon's real daughter,
perhaps transformed in a Baldanders-type fashion.  (which would weigh
against her having been loaded up bodily onto the Whorl). Whichever of these
is the case, if Blue is urth, might the mother indeed be (urth) Scylla?

Finally, the inhumi secret.  I'm afraid my thoughts on this have been very
silly indeed, but the debate seems to be going in the direction that the
secret may be something quite specific which relates to the APPLICATION of
the golden rule.  As all are agreed, just saying 'right, be nice to each
other' is not a practical solution, but if there were something in
particular that humans could do (or not do) which would change the inhumi
based upon this principle... (such as Adam's suggestion of 'not wishing
people dead').  My only initial thought is obviously trite , silly and
pants, but I'll give it to you as an example of the sort of thing I mean,
rather than a serious suggestion: Maybe humans just need to become
vegetarians?  This doesn't work because a) it's daft,  and b) Inhumi don't
eat anyway, they only drink blood.  But it did make me think of the green
man......which brings me back to where I started, so I shall stop and go
away, head in hands in shame.

Please dissect, mock, destroy and force feed back to me in small pieces

Ian

P.S. Why do people keep assuming that Horn's first 'body jump' was into
Silk's body, and that there was only one?

P.P.S.  the narrator looks at his reflection in the water at least once in
OBW



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From: james.kellar@quantel.com
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Blue not urth.......? (IGJ spoilers)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:18:06 +0100

I expect this has been remarked on before, but has anyone else noticed the references to 'green' and
'blue' in The Fifth Head of Cerberus?
I'm only halfway through it at the moment, but in the first section someone (can't remember who)
describes Ste Anne as green, and in the second section (Dr Marsch's story) Ste Croix is referred as
being blue!
Presumably this is just a coincidence - and anyway, they can't be the same planets, can they - in
the first section Dr Marsch talks about the journey back to Earth taking 20 years of Newtonian and 6
months of subjective time...
The inhabitants of Ste Anne also appear to have quite a lot in common with the inhumi, don't they?
I have to keep reminding myself that, although I'm reading 5HOC last, it was actually written long
before the other books.
Apologies if this comments will sound silly in the light of future revelations in this book!

Still waiting for my copy of IGJ to come from amazon (I live in the UK) but the order status page is
now saying "1 soon to be delivered", so it can't be long now!

regards to all

James



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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Symposium Abstracts
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:35:59 GMT

Hi folks,

In between writing an article on Buffy for a forthcoming book, and 
rushing a piece on Sterne for another book, I've just set up a delphi 
forum for further discussion of Ultan's Library. I'm testing it at the 
moment, and I haven't decided whether to keep it or scrap it, so it 
isn't linked to the journal web page yet.

But.... I've posted the abstracts for the symposium later this month 
there.

You can get to it by visiting
www.delphi.com/ultan

Jonathan
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Editor, Ultan's Library
An electronic journal for the study of Gene Wolfe
http://www.english.bham.ac.uk/ultan
email: J.M.Laidlow@bham.ac.uk

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Scyllas I, II, III
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:08:01 

Ian Smith having written:

<I agree that if it the Mother was just plain Long-Sun Scylla, she'd
probably announce it loudly and do unpleasant things to any humans she
encountered, but I love the idea that we could be talking about Typhon's
daughter here.>

<But why does Wolfe have two Scylla's in his stories, and why make the
reference to the origional Scylla in the glossary?>

Scylla I is the original biological issue of Typhon and Echidna, or as Wolfe
describes her, "a sea monster of the Red Sun Whorl." (i.e., Urth)

Scylla II is her scanned counterpart, the computerized goddess of the Long
Sun series. Scylla I, we may assume, has been left behind on Urth just as
Pas has left Typhon-Piaton back in his mountaintop citadel and she may have
entered into an allegiance with Abaia & the Other Dark Lords, who arrive
after Typhon's departure.

Scylla III, I'm proposing, is Scylla II made flesh again--that is to say,
recarnified in one of the special bodies (possibly chems?) Pas has prepared
for their eventual download once the Whorl reaches its destination. It's
been surmised that Silk has been engineered to host Pas; surely counterparts
exist for his wife and children. As for why Scylla III--the Mother--doesn't
announce her presence, she may be hiding from restored Pas, who, along with
her mother and siblings, she's attempted to kill; there may as well be a
struggle for power among the other gods and goddesses of Long Sun; after
all, they are the children, consorts and friends of ruthless Typhon.

Having Scylla be the Mother resolves another matter. Scylla means "she who
rends," so perhaps she is the true agent of Seawrack's armlessness rather
than Babbie. (I've learned to be skeptical of all unwitnessed offstage
Wolfean events that are reconstructed by untrustworthy narrators.) As for
why the Mother would mutilate Seawrack, perhaps she's worried that Horn,
like Odysseus, will be able to resist the siren's charms, and is therefore
hoping to appeal to his sense of pity. "Poor little crippled mermaid girl,
there's no way I can cast you out of my boat now," etc., etc.

And while I'm speaking of Seawrack, isn't it possible she's one of the
super-talents engineered by Pas? Scylla might easily have access to a secret
cache of them, and this would help solve the puzzle behind Mucor's long
swims out to her island, as well as the mysterious three fish that appear
when Horn goes down to the rock; both being uberfolk, they've bonded and
each is helping the other.

And lastly, from events presented in Wolfe's short tale of the Whorl, "The
Night Chough," there's evidence that there may be a piece of Scylla in Oreb,
just as there was a piece of Pas in Jerboa--that or she's riding him the
same way human beings and chems get ridden by Echidna and her brood.

Robert Borski






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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Gene Wolfe's Pants!
Date: 6 Aug 2000 05:33:46 

Or what holds them up, anyway.  It's been suggested to me that the rest of the list my enjoy the following:

Along the lines of writing as therapy, and my last post mentioning Gene Wolfe's preference to "stay down in the basement with the demons," on this same panel at Readercon, Wolfe startled his fellow panelists and those of us in the audience by suddenly announcing:  "Now I will take off my pants!"  But rather than channeling the spirit of Gardner Dozois, he was actually merely removing his belt buckle (Terminus Est!) to pass around for general perusal.  Engraved into the metal was language certifying the wearer to perform exorcisms.  As to the significance of such language appearing on a belt buckle, I'll leave that to the Freudians in the audience!

Falcon


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From: "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ Spoilers
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:07:06 

Just finished this tonight.  Like any of the New Sun, Long Sun, Short Sun
books I almost hate to finish it.  It's like parting with a dear friend
who's been with me the last couple of weeks.

Green Thoughts:

I like the idea others have presented of the secret of the inhumi being not
just be kind to other humans but to the inhumi.  I also like the idea that
the more they drink of human blood the more human they become.

However, both Fava and Jahlee expressed desires to actually become human so
I don't think that can be *the* secret or they would want Horn to tell it
and not fear becoming human.

I keep getting the feeling, like others here, that Krait's mother drinking
Sinew's blood affected Sinew as much as Krait.  Did she steal part of
Sinew's soul?  Many here seem to think that Sinew is not as bad as Horn
imagines and that it is Horn's guilt that portrays him that way.  What if
Sinew lost his goodness to Krait and even had some of the badness Krait's
mother had received from other human victims put into him?


Concerning Pas.  I had a strange thought pop in my head in the last 30 pages
or so of IGJ.  Perhaps I am way off base and some of you will easily point
it out to me.  First off I admit I've never totally understood what it means
for Severian "to bring the new sun."  I've also always wondered why Wolfe
would take a character like Typhon and make him the savior of
humanity/creator of the whorl.  Is it possible that when Severian killed
Typhon he ate his brain and drank the albano?? (can't remember the name)
brain juice and thus became Typhon/Pas?  Could Severian be Pas?  Perhaps
this had been conjectured here before and I've missed it.


Green questions??

Do you think that the Neighbors left the planet and return through some
advanced machine or mental means or are they all dead and only their ghosts
remain?  It seemed like at different points in the story both were implied.

Why did the Neighbors imply that *they* needed the waterway unclogged?  Was
it just to teach Horn a lesson or did they really have a need to clear the
waterway and why?

Does Fava live on in Green dreams or did her existence end when Horn's dream
of Green did?

Why did Horn never use the dream travel to go to Seawrack or Nettle (where
he really wants to be)?

Wasn't the Long Sun beginning to run down and out of control at the end of
the Long Sun books?  How are people continuing to live there 25-30 years
later?  It seemed like the Sun would soon go out of control and
overheat/kill the crops and people at the end of the LS books to me.  Why
hasn't there been more of a mass exodus?


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists@danrabin.com>
Subject: (whorl) The missing chems
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:28:01 

As we discuss the respective humanity of humans and inhumi, it occurs 
to me that _Short Sun_ has dealt little with chems so far.  They were 
certainly accepted as people in the Long Sun Whorl (although 
sometimes the subject of discrimination).  Do they have spirits in 
the sense of _Green's_?

We know that there's an unresolved plot element concerning Horn's 
bringing Olivine's eye to Marble.  Perhaps chems will yet be tied 
into the spiritual scheme of things.

On a related topic:  how are we to square the adopting of human souls 
by inhumi with Mucor's characterization of Quetzal as "the man who 
isn't there"?  Does Mucor perceive people distinctly from the way 
they appear in Horn's astral projections?

   -- Dan Rabin

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From: David Wells <ADW@ovum.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:47:54 +0100

>From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:22:05 -0400

>Hide notes that [Silk] looks much more like Horn during at least one of the
trips.

I think that this is simply logical (well, spirit-logical anyway).
His body is 100% Silk. But his spirit is 50% Horn - hence looks more like
Horn. Cf. the changed appearance of Oreb's spirit (and, for that matter,
those of the inhumi).

I concur with others that Horn knows that he's in Silk's body, but denies
"being Silk" because
	- basic honesty. He isn't 100% Pure Silk(TM)
	- neither he nor the fragment of Silk's spirit within him actually
want to try to live up to the legendary status which Silk has attained
(The latter is, arguably, rather a selfish motive, although maybe I am
unfair in ascribing it to him).

old newt

P.S. Inhumi secret: I don't think anyone has cited this bit yet:
p. 253, SHorn speaking:
"After that [more people being killed] something else will happen, and still
more people will die, and the inhumi will come in the night to drink our
blood, _carousing upon our hates and fears and lusts_".
Seems a fairly explicit statement of the "let's all be virtuous" hypothesis.

P.P.S. Is it possible that the "glamour" of the inhumi - their ability to
convince people that they are human beyond the illusions of
shape-modification and make-up - was inherited by feeding off the Vanished
People? This sort of ability seems right up the VPs' street...

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From: Ron Crown <crownrw@SLU.EDU>
Subject: (whorl) Reviews and Wolfe's sales figures
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:59:49 

I will temporarily de-lurk to offer a couple of mini-reviews of IGJ from
important trade publications (Library Journal has a big impact on
library sales).

   Library Journal, July 2000 v125 i12 p147 

In Green's Jungles. (Review)_(book review) Jackie Cassada. 
Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2000 Cahners Publishing Company 

Wolfe, Gene. In Green's Jungles. Tor. (Book of the Short Sun, Vol. 2).
Aug. 2000.  c.384p. ISBN 0-312-87315-8. $24.95. SF 

Horn's search for the legendary hero Patera Silk has taken him from the
world called Blue to the humid jungles of Green, a neighboring planet
populated by inhuman blood drinkers and their human slaves. As he tries
to make sense of his wanderings, Horn's memories and dreams blend with
the present in an elusive and intriguing chronicle of an ordinary man
forced into extraordinary circumstances. The sequel to On Blue's Waters
(LJ 10/15/99), the latest in an epic cycle that evolves from the
four-volume "Book of the Long Sun," displays Wolfe's signature;
style--literate, complex, and multilayered.  Best read in the context of
previous books in the series, this exploration of the nature of identity
and reality belongs in libraries that own the preceding series titles. 



Publishers Weekly, June 26, 2000 v247 i26 p54 

IN GREEN'S JUNGLES. (Review)_(book review) 
Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2000 Cahners Publishing Company 

GENE WOLFE. Tor, $24.95 (384p) ISBN 0-312-87315-8 

In 1980, Wolfe published The Shadow of the Torturer, the first volume in
his now classic Book of the New Sun, which was eventually followed by
his much-praised Book of the Long Sun sequence. Whereas the former
series was set on the decadent planet Urth, the latter took place within
the Whorl, a hollowed-out asteroid whose inhabitants knew nothing of the
universe outside their failing world. At the end of the second series,
the charismatic Calde Silk led his people to the planets called Green
and Blue and then disappeared. For years it had been rumored that the
two novel sequences were somehow connected--and here the rumor is
substantiated. In                          this second volume in The
Book of the Short Sun (after On Blue's Waters), Horn, the narrator of
the Long Sun books, is on a quest for the lost Silk. Although he engages
in numerous adventures--leading an army, slogging through a
monster-inhabited jungle, touring several exotic societies--the
specifics of the plot are almost inconsequential.  What counts is
Wolfe's gorgeous prose, the brilliant dialogue and the dazzling way that
reality shifts from one paragraph to the next. Horn soon discovers that
he has the seemingly magical power to travel instantaneously between
Green and Blue, though his body and those of his compatriots undergo
strange changes with each shift. Eventually, they visit a world with a
dying red sun that may be long-lost Urth. Oddly, Horn also discovers
that he has begun to physically resemble Silk. Like any middle volume in
a series, this novel leaves mysteries unsolved and plot threads hanging,
but that really doesn't matter. It's the sheer strangeness of this
masterful tale that counts, and the glorious sense of unknown wonders to
come. (Aug.) 


A review like the PW one especially should help but this morning I
checked the figures for the wholesaler that our library uses; they
pre-pub ordered 1200 copies of IGJ, as of today, they still have 757 "on
hand."  Of course, that doesn't mean that 443 have sold yet either, they
may have just delivered them to book stores which could still return
them.  Sadly, it appears that IGJ isn't jumping off the shelves, at
least not from our vendor (which is one of the major vendors for both
public and academic libraries).

Which raises a question for me; does anyone know about how many copies
(hardcover and/or paperback) Wolfe sells?  I once ran into a Tor
representative at a library convention who mentioned the figure of
10,000 hardcover copies as being the standard expectation for Wolfe. 
Can any of the well-connected denizens of the WHORL confirm/correct
this?  (or is it a closely guarded secret?)

Back to lurk mode....

Ron Crown
Reference Librarian
Saint Louis University
crownrw@slu.edu

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From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@harmonixmusic.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ: Prediction and Question
Date: 07 Aug 2000 11:09:19 

Prediction: On Blue's Waters was about both Horn's original time on
Blue (getting to Pajarocu) and his adventures there after returning.
In Green's Jungles was about both his original time on Green and his
later adventures there through astral projection.  Therefore, I'm
guessing that Return To The Whorl will contain both past tense and
present tense goings-on under the Long Sun, and that the title refers
to the present-tense return that will not take place until the third
volume, and not to his first return which he's mentioned in passing so
far.  My apologies for belaboring the obvious.

Question: I never really understood the whole aquastor/eidolon thing
back in BOTNS.  Is it possible that Horn's (and others) physical
manifestation during the "astral projection" episodes is an aquastor?

-- 
                 Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org
Honest Bob CD now available! | http://www.dfan.org/honestbob/cd.html


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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Scyllas I, II, III
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:19:48 

**** On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:08:01 -0500, "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net> said:

Robert> Scylla III, I'm proposing, is Scylla II made flesh again--that is
Robert> to say, recarnified in one of the special bodies (possibly chems?)
Robert> Pas has prepared for their eventual download once the Whorl reaches
Robert> its destination. It's been surmised that Silk has been engineered
Robert> to host Pas; surely counterparts exist for his wife and
Robert> children. As for why Scylla III--the Mother--doesn't announce her
Robert> presence, she may be hiding from restored Pas, who, along with her
Robert> mother and siblings, she's attempted to kill; there may as well be
Robert> a struggle for power among the other gods and goddesses of Long
Robert> Sun; after all, they are the children, consorts and friends of
Robert> ruthless Typhon.

My problem with this is that when Horn mentions the Mother to the Neighbors
(in OBW, page 269), they say "that is one of her names". This suggests that
she was on Blue before the Whorl arrived. (Only suggests, of course,
there's certainly lots of ways to "spin" the Neighbors' response.)

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
                -- Mahatma Ghandi



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From: "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) More Green Thoughts SPOILERS
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:09:00 

One thing that stood out to be while reading IGJ is Wolfe's treatment of
soldiers.  I noticed it in the Long Sun books and now again in IGJ but
couldn't quite put my finger on what bothered me.

Wolfe constantly keeps me off balance with the personality he gives to
soldiers, whether human or chem.  One instant they seem to be warming to
their prisoners and becoming friends with them and the next they are
treating them roughly (like leaving Horn and Fava exposed in the snow).
It's probably an evolution of the torturer theme.

The other thing that keeps me off balance is the prisoners reactions to the
soldiers.  They never develop ill will towards their captors.  They don't
take it personally if treated roughly.  Once again an evolution of how they
reacted to torturers?

So by the time humans have gotten to the Long Sun/Three Whorls era, have
soldiers inherited the torturer *mantel*?  There is some implication that
the clergy are the inheritors of the torturer "cloak" but the augurs do not
exhibit torturer behaviors.




Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:17:24 

David Wells wrote:

> I concur with others that Horn knows that he's in Silk's body, but denies
> "being Silk" because
>         - basic honesty. He isn't 100% Pure Silk(TM)
>         - neither he nor the fragment of Silk's spirit within him actually
> want to try to live up to the legendary status which Silk has attained
> (The latter is, arguably, rather a selfish motive, although maybe I am
> unfair in ascribing it to him).

But, as I've said before, the problem isn't just that he denies being
Silk.  It's that he never mentions being in Silk's body, and does things
which suggest that he doesn't know where Silk's body is.

> P.S. Inhumi secret: I don't think anyone has cited this bit yet:
> p. 253, SHorn speaking:
> "After that [more people being killed] something else will happen, and still
> more people will die, and the inhumi will come in the night to drink our
> blood, _carousing upon our hates and fears and lusts_".
> Seems a fairly explicit statement of the "let's all be virtuous" hypothesis.

Horn says elsewhere that our bad behavior makes the inhumi worse.  But
since he says it, it isn't the secret.

--Adam

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From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n011
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:29:09 +0100

Adam said:

But, as I've said before, the problem isn't just that he denies being
Silk.  It's that he never mentions being in Silk's body, and does things
which suggest that he doesn't know where Silk's body is.

And I say.....

Exactly.  And whilst I've only read IGJ the once (on 2nd time now) and don't
remember all of OBW, as far as I remember the only people who knew Silk who
recognise the narrator as Silk in the two books are Auk and Colonel Abanja,
and both these encounters occur during the dream shift to Green, where, as
old newt notes:

Hide notes that [Silk] looks much more like Horn during at least one of the
trips.  I think that this is simply logical (well, spirit-logical anyway).
His body is 100% Silk. But his spirit is 50% Horn - hence looks more like
Horn. Cf. the changed appearance of Oreb's spirit (and, for that matter,
those of the inhumi).

ie the narrator looks more like his spirit self (or SELVES) during the
trips.  Remember how Sev used to be mistaken for Thecla at times?  Other
people (the Gaonese, Inclito) who didn't know Silk on the whorl may well
assume that a wise man with
a) a talking bird,
b) a stick
c) who talked like Silk
d) was a fantastic leader, and
e) wore an Augur's robe

would be that bloke from 'the book of Silk'.  Yup, I'm proposing that both
Horn AND Silk are occupying a third (unknown) body at the 'present of OBW
and IGJ, which would explain both the narrator's lack of recognition of
being in Silk's body and also his circling a physical description of Silk
out of Gaon in order to 'locate' him.  As I said I'm reading through again
to check, and anyone with evidence against please step forward.....

Ian




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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:06:21 

My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with knife) by himself next
to Hyacinth in her coffin.

=mantis=



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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n011
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 10:03:41 PDT

Adam Stephanides wrote:>
>David Wells wrote:
>
> > I concur with others that Horn knows that he's in Silk's body, but 
>denies
> > "being Silk" because
> >         - basic honesty. He isn't 100% Pure Silk(TM)
> >         - neither he nor the fragment of Silk's spirit within him 
>actually
> > want to try to live up to the legendary status which Silk has attained
> > (The latter is, arguably, rather a selfish motive, although maybe I am
> > unfair in ascribing it to him).
>
>But, as I've said before, the problem isn't just that he denies being
>Silk.  It's that he never mentions being in Silk's body, and does things
>which suggest that he doesn't know where Silk's body is.

This seems to be another example of Wolfe's (and Horn's) disingenuousness, 
like when Horn says that Hide/Cuoio "looks familiar."  Yeah, he looks a lot 
like a son he used to have.

Narwhal
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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: (whorl) Silk's body or another?
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:03:08 

**** On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:29:09 +0100, "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk> said:

Ian> would be that bloke from 'the book of Silk'.  Yup, I'm proposing that
Ian> both Horn AND Silk are occupying a third (unknown) body at the
Ian> 'present of OBW and IGJ, which would explain both the narrator's lack
Ian> of recognition of being in Silk's body and also his circling a
Ian> physical description of Silk out of Gaon in order to 'locate' him.  As
Ian> I said I'm reading through again to check, and anyone with evidence
Ian> against please step forward.....

Could someone cite chapter and verse about this business of a physical
description of Silk being circulated by Horn? I just reread OBW, and didn't
find it. It's always possible I was momentarily distracted, but I think the
closest passage is this, on page 18:

"Silk may be here on Blue already, after all. I have dispatched letters to
Han and some other towns, and we will see. It is convenient, I find, to
have messengers at one's beck and call." 

...and so on. Nothing here about a physical description, though he says

"... I write new letters subtracting some facts and adding others,
composing flatteries and threats I hope will bring this town and that to my
assistance..."

One can almost read this passage as if he's trying to convince other towns
to acknowledge *he* is Silk... though I don't think that's what it really
means. Note also, that on page 25, he says:

"No more letters. What farce!"

I still think the likeliest reading of all this is that Horn knows he is in
Silk's body, but it's clear that for complete clarification one must know
what happened in the Whorl, and we don't at this point. It would be useful
for someone to collect all the references we have so far about this. For
example, there are references to Pig, to Olivine getting him the augur's
robe and giving him her eye. There seem to be references to some contact
with the head of the chapter in the Whorl (Incus?). Has anyone tried to
collect all of these?

Fernando


-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today --
I think he's from the CIA.



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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: (whorl) more Blue mysteries
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:18:13 


As I mentioned in another email, I've just reread OBW, which was quite
rewarding. Some things I still don't understand...

1) What happened in the pit? It seems likely that Horn died and was brought
back to life. By a neighbor? (Someone with a long nose or a spider...)
Notice that there may be a bit of "astral travel" here.

2) Where was Oreb? Looking for Silk? One presumes he must have come with
Horn from the Whorl...

3) What happened in the forest? Horn says he talked about the neighbor's
god that lives in the forest to Brother and Sister, so that seems the most
likely explanation.

4) What does "Wijzer warned me" on page 366 refer to?

5) I still don't understand the Horn/Babbie bit. First of all, Babbie was
supposedly left in Pajarocu, so how does he suddenly show up? The sequence
is sort of like this (starting on page 376):

 - Horn goes to sleep
 - A period that seems long to him passes
 - He hears himself calling Babbie
 - He gets up on his hands and knees (all the motions for the next couple
   of paragraphs are consistent with him having taken the shape of Babbie,
   but then what of the references to clothes below?)
 - The inhumi are gone
 - He crawls out of the hut, sees the fire, etc. (so he is still in the
   boat - if he is now in Babbie's body, where is Horn's body?)
 - He hears someone calling for Babbie from the shore, and understands he
   is being called.
 - He describes his clothes, trousers, waistband, etc.

6) Clearly the events at the very end of OBW are very important. Who are
the Brother and Sister?

7) Has anyone figured out the geography? How are the cities in IGJ located
in relation to Gaon/Han? (Close, certainly, but is it the same river?) 

OK, enough questions. I'm going through IGJ again, enjoying myself every
inch of the way.

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today --
I think he's from the CIA.



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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:20:59 

**** On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:06:21 -0700, mantis said:

mantis> My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with knife) by
mantis> himself next to Hyacinth in her coffin.

That's how I read it too. But what do we then make of the "searching for
Silk" passages?

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

The warning message we sent the Russians was a calculated ambiguity
that would be clearly understood.
                -- Alexander Haig



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From: Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:45:05 


--- Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com> wrote:
> My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with
> knife) by himself next
> to Hyacinth in her coffin.
> 
> =mantis=
I pretty much agree with Mantis on this one.  Although
I think that Silk was at the point of suicide and had
not actually committed the act.  The blood mentioned
was from the final sacrifice ala Orpine. 
IMO this is the Occam's razor: one transference, two
despondent spirits attempting to cope, some things
happen (to be revealed to some extent or other in
RTW), then Silk's body containing Horn's and Silk's
spirit is abducted by Hari Mau.

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 

A few thoughts.

	1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed
clear to me. Horn knows he's in Silk's body, but his respect for Silk and
his desire to keep his own identity causes him to avoid thinking about this
very much. (How can he NOT know it?). As for mirrors, all cultures have
polished bronze! 

	2.. Unless I missed something, the switch means Silk's soul came into
Horn's body. Did he die on Green? Or will we meet him again there?

	3. Horn's ability to project his soul astrally, and the souls of those
around him, is a reflex of what the neighbor did to him. He acquired the
ability at that point. But he needs someone who has "been there" to do it
with. Thus, when Rigoglio is tripping with him, he winds up on Urth.	 I
don't think he needs input from inhumi to do it, unless he wants to go to
Green. We'll see. After all, as someone asked, why doesn't he visit
Seawrack or Nettle?

	3a. Which implies that the neighbors have also been to the Long Sun, since
they could switch Horn and Silk. And that's how the original inhumi got to
the Long Sun, IMO.

	4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human
characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God"
souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become
clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not
join the projection. When our souls are right, theirs will be also. That
latter we have known for a long time, as part of the secret. I submit the
former is another part of it. I don't know if "do unto others" or "come
under law" is the secret, and as noted by someone, Wolfe probably has
another rabbit to pull out of his big hat. The question, as noted, is how
such a kindly resolution of the problem would "destroy" the inhumi, since
those who become "good humans" WANT to do so after a time. But "destroy"
can be an ambiguous term....

	5. Horn knows that Pas is not God, not the Increate, not the Outsider. But
remember, or learn here if you don't know it, that the Bible uses "god" for
elder human beings and for angels also. There are, indeed, such lesser gods
in the Bible, and in Wolfe's thinking. They are created gods, not the
Increated Pancreator Outsider.

	5a. Horn's problem, which he is outgrowing as Silk did, is in thinking
that it is appropriate to render worship to such created gods, instead of
worshipping the Outsider only. By worship I don't mean mere service, which
one might have to render and which it might be appropriate to render, but I
mean sacrifice. After the death of Jesus, the only acceptable human
sacrifice, all animal sacrifice is voided. It becomes an abomination. Wolfe
as an environmental conservationist surely believes this strongly. Thus,
Horn needs to mature out of offering animals to any gods. The Outsider
shows him that bread and wine, not the blood of animals, is what He desires.

	5b. Outgrowing the slaughter of animals for religious purposes is going to
be part of the healing of the human soul, which will also convert the
inhumi into friendly partners. I think the last line of the book hints at
the latter. Horn must learn to love the inhumi. He is slowly doing so.
"Love your enemies; Do good to those who despitefully use you." -- Jesus.

	6. Fernando wrote:
The inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might
conjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in
Green wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are
closer. 
	Nutria: I'd say they learned to be slavemasters from the neighbors. Horn
says that the neighbors enslaved the inhumi. As they learn more from
humans, they will begin to fight among themselves.
	Also, recall that in OBW we have a sad scene of a chained slave girl.
Humans also practice slavery. (I'm surprised human sacrifice has not made
more of an appearance in these books, as it was common all over the ancient
world, and does appear in the Soldier books.)

	7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....

	8. Alga wrote: Horn had to clean the sewers, with thousands of people dead
from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and I don't think it was.
	Nutria: I had the impression that these people had committed suicide
rather than serve the inhumi. Wasn't that made clear toward the end of the
book?

	9. On Scylla. A side-note that is probably pregnant: The scarlet sea-beast
of Revelation, and the Great Whore who sits on its back (Rev. 13, 17).
Surely that's the imagery. And Seawrack leads men to their doom, as a
siren, and "leads" Horn to adultery. Part of what he has to overcome is
this sin, obviously, and he has not yet done so. Recall also that Horn's
adultery was a violent rape to start with. We're back to the "golden rule"
business. Humans have to stop being like this, and have to stop letting
themselves be influenced by the daughters of Pas. Yet, Seawrack herself is
a likeable character, no? Perhaps she also can be redeemed?
	The original Scylla as a daughter of Pas, Baldandersed into an undine,
seems right to me. She becomes a servant of Abaia. I don't see any reason
to think she was a daughter of Abaia adopted by Pas. 
	And since the plan of redemption of the Outsider is the same for the
neighbors as for humans, it stands to reason that they have their own
Scarlet Whore to deal with. I don't think we have to think of "downloading"
or any such thing to understand this. Rather, it is a matter of parallels
between two worlds, each with the same basic history: Each with its own
relationship to the Outsider, it's own Christ, it's own Whore, etc. 

	10. The transition between the books. I think N. Gevers has a point, but
I'd add that spending time with Brother and Sister is also therapeutic for
Horn. He gets a family again. 

Patera Nutria


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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 12:32:32 

At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:
>	4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human
>characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God"
>souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become
>clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not
>join the projection. 

Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human". 

>	Also, recall that in OBW we have a sad scene of a chained slave girl.
>Humans also practice slavery. (I'm surprised human sacrifice has not made
>more of an appearance in these books, as it was common all over the ancient
>world, and does appear in the Soldier books.)

If I recall correctly, there is some discussion of human sacrifice in _Long
Sun_--it's condemned as an abomination, and at the same time is recognized
as the most powerful sacrifice. The talking animals--Oreb and the talking
cat--are assumed to be valuable sacrifices because they are like humans. 

Which, hmm, maybe indicates that Oreb *does* have a human-like soul....

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
Subject: (whorl) RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue mysteries)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:57:39 

In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.5

"Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> wrote
Subject: more Blue mysteries
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:18:13 -0400

4) What does "Wijzer warned me" on page 366 refer to?

I don't have the book with me at work, but when I read this line I went back
and reread Horn's conversation with Wijzer and figured this out (I think).
Wijzer said something to the effect that eventually Horn would change so
that even his own sons wouldn't recognize him.

Chris
-----
Christopher D. Hall
Aerospace and Ocean Engineering
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA  24061-0203
(540) 231-2314
(540) 231-9632 (FAX)
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall


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From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
Subject: (whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:01:52 

In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500
A few thoughts.

[snip]

	7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....


I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there are
annotations by Hide or Hoof
saying that


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From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's book]
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:03:05 

In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8 

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500
A few thoughts.

[snip]

	7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....


I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there 
are annotations by Hide or Hoof saying that Nettle has read it.  Don't
remember the page number though.

Chris
-----
Christopher D. Hall
Aerospace and Ocean Engineering
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA  24061-0203
(540) 231-2314
(540) 231-9632 (FAX)
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall 


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:25:23 

At 12:32 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:
>>	4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human
>>characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God"
>>souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become
>>clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not
>>join the projection. 
>
>Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human". 

Good point. Of course, as you note, Oreb talks. Also, there is a distance
between reptiles and mammals that might figure in.

Nutria


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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk (2)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:55:30 

>My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with knife) by himself next
>to Hyacinth in her coffin.

To expand this and add to it:

1) I think that Silk really crossed the Rubicon and slashed himself,
offering his own body as a funeral sacrifice, just as I think Horn's body
gave out on him against his will to live and struggle on Green.  I don't
think Silk just thinking, "Gosh, I could just die right now, I'm so sad"
would be nearly enough.

2) Because I think Silk killed himself, I think Horn has a very
different/revised impression of the real man behind the mask that was first
created by the politics of Viron and later embellished/enshrined within his
work TBOTLS.  Silk's suicide is definitely non-heroic, even without a
Catholic angle.  This factor plays in the whole "Horn/Silk Tangle."

3) Metempsychosis, the transmigration of souls.  My sense of what the
Neighbors did and how they explained it is this: Silk wanted to die, and
was dying (but this was fixable); Horn wanted to live, and was dying; so
Horn's spirit (and probably his soul, if it is a separate thing within this
context) was put into Silk's body, and Silk's spirit/soul went elsewhere.
"Spirit Weak, Flesh Strong" and "Spirit Strong, Flesh Weak" into "Spirit
Strong, Flesh Strong" (and some discards of weak flesh, weak spirit).

4) Seems to me that while Horn knows where Horn is (in Silk's body), and he
knows that Silk is not there (except as a "ghostly" residue, like the seeds
left after a god has possessed a Vironese person for a while), he does not
know where Silk's non-corporal part is.  Two immediate options are: Silk's
spirit/soul has gone on to Mainframe/heaven (in which case nobody is ever
going to see him on Blue); Silk's spirit/soul has been installed into
another body, perhaps one that doesn't have a such a melancholic tinge (in
which case he might appear on Blue at any moment).  I don't think that Horn
thinks that Silk is in Horn's old body on Green: if he did, his
descriptions of "Silk" would sound more like the shorter bald guy we know
Horn looked like when he set out from Lizard Island: still, it is possible
that this is what the Neighbors did, but I tend to think it is not (I think
the Horn body is dead and decomposed).

Now, whether "Passilk" is a creation from before or after the suicide
remains to be seen.  If after, well then, that's where Silk went--into
Mainframe (but even then he could download into a human host).

=The Horn/Silk Tangle=

As we keep pointing out, the majority of the people in TBOSS know Silk only
through reading TBOLS, they do not have firsthand experience.

The "Silk" they know, then, is a step or two removed from real-life.  And
Horn is in a unique position to know, first-hand, how far off his own
boyhood hero-worshipping version was.

But the world of Blue seems to really need a hero exactly like the Silk of
TBOLS (crop failures, slavery, wars of expansion are just a few of the
problems marring the "paradise" of a new world).  And as an architect of
that hero, Horn seems to have volunteered/been drafted to become the hero.

Paradoxically, this means that Horn must become more like "Silk" and less
like Silk; he must become the fiction, not the warts-and-all fact.  So
things are being burned away: bits of Silk, bits of Horn.


On to the editing of Horn's first book (OBW), but not his second book
(IGJ): yes, this =is= something very interesting.  OBW has five frames
(Blue, Green, Whorl, present, and future), but IGJ has only two (Green and
present); we have no indication that Horn returned home, nor even his book
IGJ being read by his family.  Things are very uncertain, suddenly.

With regard to the next volume, I have a suspicion that there will be even
=less= about the whorl, directly and indirectly, then there is about Green
in IGJ: rather like how Sainte Anne is in 5HC (you =think= you've been
there, but you've really just read a forgery and a traveller's diary about
the place).

=mantis=



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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) In Green's Cover
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:35:15 

Got the book today and brought it home. And hid it from my houseguest!
Whoa--that cover! An amalgam of Ben Franklin and Joe Lieberman takes a
stroll with an octopoidal Highwayman! No, I couldn't face the (at best)
politely raised eyebrows or (worse) outright snickering that would have
been my lot had this been openly displayed!

-alga


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:06:15 

	I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for
the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,
also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being
willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.
	I submit that the eucharist the Outsider leads Horn to perform indicates
that this will turn out to be the answer. That's the meaning of the
eucharist, for by eating the death of Jesus into ourselves, we become able
to die for our enemies as He died for His.
	That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing
of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love
the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.
	When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire
this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather
than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it
will not annihilate them but transform them somehow.
	I bet that Horn gives his life for Jahlee before it's all over.
	I also bet that when it's all over, the Memoirs of Severian, the Book of
Silk, and the Book of Horn will be seen as a progression. Severian never
really learns much about love, and certainly never dies for anyone. He does
grow and mature, but not as much as Silk. Silk makes much more progress,
but Horn will make the most. The triptich of their lives will make one
thematic narrative of personal growth and maturation into Christlikeness.
	I cannot help but think of the Casher O'Neill stories of Cordwainer Smith,
though I don't know if these influenced Wolfe at all. They deal with
politics, spirituality, and religion progressively, as "On the Gem Planet"
is a "mirror for princes"; "On the Wind Planet" is about conversion; and
"On the Sand Planet" is about the application of that conversion back into
the world. In a very broad way, Wolfe's three narratives follow the same
kinds of themes: in the real world, apart from the real world (on the
whorl), and back into the real world. Just a thought.
	But I'll bet I'm right about the secret.

Patera Nutria


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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:55:59 

Jim Jordan wrote:

>         1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed
> clear to me.

Not to me.  What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into
someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will
be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another
there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning)  Nothing about
moving Silk's spirit at all.  And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will
be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man."

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:11:31 

Jim Jordan wrote:
> 
>         I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for
> the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,
> also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being
> willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.
>[snip]
>         That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing
> of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love
> the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.
>         When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire
> this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather
> than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it
> will not annihilate them but transform them somehow.

I don't think that this is the secret, for a couple of reasons.  Fr one
thing, it doesn't fit several of the things we know about the secret: it
doesn't explain why the inhumi drink human blood, it doesn't have
anything to do with Krait's mother drinking from Sinew, and it doesn't
explain the Neighbor's remark on p. 21.

For another thing, iirc (I don't have the book with me) in OBW Horn says
explicitly that if humans could use the secret it would turn the inhumi
back into the unintelligent predators they originally were.  So if
humans did come to "love the inhumi," they would presumably refuse to
apply the secret (since the inhumi have no wish to lose their
intelligence). 

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40 

I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)

Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Silk's body or another?
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:29:04 

Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:
> 
> Could someone cite chapter and verse about this business of a physical
> description of Silk being circulated by Horn? I just reread OBW, and didn't
> find it. It's always possible I was momentarily distracted, but I think the
> closest passage is this, on page 18:
> 
> "Silk may be here on Blue already, after all. I have dispatched letters to
> Han and some other towns, and we will see. It is convenient, I find, to
> have messengers at one's beck and call."
> 
> ...and so on. Nothing here about a physical description, though he says

I think I'm the one who started the "physical description" bit, and
since the passage you quote is the one I was thinking of, I was
evidently wrong.  What happened, I think, was that I originally reasoned
that if Silk were on Blue, he would be trying to stay hidden (otherwise
he would be known already), and so the only way Horn could find him
would be through a physical description.  Then, not having a copy of OBW
with me, I misremembered this as Horn explicitly mentioning a physical
description.

But the broader mystery remains, and is even sharpened by IGJ: if
mantis's interpretation of the spirit-transference scene is correct--and
I believe it is--and if Horn knows it's in Silk's body that he was
placed, then he shouldn't be hoping to find Silk on Blue, in any body. 
Of course, something may have happened on the Whorl that we don't know
about to change that.

--Adam

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:31:36 

At 8:06 PM -0500 8/9/00, Jim Jordan wrote:
>	I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men 
>must die for
>the inhumi.

Nutria,

You know, I really like this idea. It seems somehow very right. The 
only problem with it is that I really find it hard to see how Horn 
could have used it as a credible threat against the inhumi. They seem 
to have a pretty realistic idea of what humans are capable of, so I 
don't know why they would be at all worried about Horn telling this 
fact to anyone else. And way would anyone else believe it?

Frankly, after reading IGJ, I no longer believe that Wolfe has any 
intention of directly revealing the secret of the inhumi in the last 
book, so we will probably be able to keep up this guessing game 
indefinitely.

William Ansley
-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) In Green's Cover
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:47:08 

>Got the book today and brought it home. And hid it from my houseguest!
>Whoa--that cover! An amalgam of Ben Franklin and Joe Lieberman takes a
>stroll with an octopoidal Highwayman! No, I couldn't face the (at best)
>politely raised eyebrows or (worse) outright snickering that would have
>been my lot had this been openly displayed!
>
>-alga
>

I agree, as I think many, if not all, reading this do. The IGJ cover 
makes the OBW cover look, well, less bad in comparison.

It would have been very easy to make attractive, elegant and (I would 
think) inexpensive covers for the three books. Make each book's cover 
a single photograph, with the title and author superimposed in a 
contrasting color. For OBW, an aerial view of an empty expanse of 
ocean; for IGJ, an aerial view of a solid jungle canopy; for RTTW, a 
star field. It may turn out that my third cover is inappropriate when 
the book actually comes out and I am sure that no one else will be as 
fond of these cover ideas as I am, but most of you will probably 
agree that it would be an improvement.

William Ansley
-- 
William Ansley

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From: ansible@cix.co.uk (David Langford)
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n013
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:12 +0100 (BST)


Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
> sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
> knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)
> 
> Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?

When first manifesting at the opening of =Nightside=, the Outsider speaks 
with multiple -- "paired" -- voices. Wolfe may have the Trinity in mind, 
or two of its components.

Dave

David Langford
ansible@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/

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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Gene Wolfe Symposium update
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:04:46 GMT

Below is the message I have just sent out to those who have 
expressed an interest in attending the Gene Wolfe symposium later 
this month at the University of Birmingham, UK. 

If there are any other lurkers on the list who are interested in 
attending, please get in touch.


Dear all,

I hope you are keeping well, and looking forward to visiting 
Birmingham on Satuday 26th August for the Gene Wolfe 
symposium. I just wanted to contact you all and let you know a few 
more details.

The symposium will being around 11am, and we should be serving 
some coffee from around 10.15 - 10.30 until then.

It will take place in the Arts Building, on the 1st floor in the Dept of 
English at the University of Birmingham. Maps available on request. 
Travel details also available.

Costs? I'm hoping that the Uni will come through with some money 
to pay for food and some sandwiches at lunchtime, which will make 
the symposium free. I will update you nearer the time.

The abstracts for the symposium are on the web in the Ultan's 
Library discussion forum on delphi. If any of you can't access this 
please contact me. The URL is
http://www.delphi.com/ultan

I'm experimenting with the forum at the moment (tho' nobody wants 
to post!) as a possible venue for an electronic version of the 
conference to take place next year. This will allow our brethren 
outside these Isle to participate, should they want to.

You can log in as a 'Guest' and read the posts, thus avoiding 
registration.

There are only 4 papers at present, which is a great shame, so I 
would expect the symposium to conclude around 4pm. One of 
these papers will be read aloud by myself, as Dr Nick Gevers is 
unable to attend due to being on the other side of the world. We are 
very grateful for his participation despite this. Nigel Price and I are 
toying with a round table discussion of a certain aspect of Wolfe's 
work, a certain short story which perhaps we could ask you all to 
read beforehand. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Finally, we would like to thank you for your interest in the 
symposium and ask that if you know of anyone else who might be 
interested in attending to contact them on our behalf.

Message ends.
Be seeing you.

Jonathan

Finally, if you know of anyone else who might be interested
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Modern Languages Office - German & Italian
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston, Birmingham
B15 2TT, England
0121 414 5996
my email not working? tell me on ultan01@yahoo.co.uk

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From: "Dennis G. Berdanis" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ thoughts SPOILERS
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:40:59 

Adam Stephanides wrote:

>Jim Jordan wrote:
>
>>         1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn.
That seemed
>> clear to me.
>
.
>Not to me.  What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into
>someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will
>be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another
>there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning)  Nothing about
>moving Silk's spirit at all.  And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will
>be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man."

Also note that is says "instead of two dying men" which implies to me that
Silk was already dying and was not just in deep despair contemplating
suicide.

I also don't see the evidence that Silk had committed suicide.  Perhaps he
was just at the end of his life span.  Many times when two people are joined
in spirit and body for many years as he and Hyacinth (sp?) were when one
dies the other doesn't live much longer.  Perhaps he was just dying from
sadness/grief.

What in the text leads the suicide believers to believe so?


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) A question, an observation
Date: 10 Aug 2000 07:26:37 

Forgive the question, but I can't for the life of me remember where we're shown that Hyacinth is dead or that Silk has committed suicide as I see stated in many posts.  Could someone cite evidence for this for me?

As to the awful cover of IGJ, I raised this point with an EWSRN (editor who shall remain nameless), and he replied that Wolfe already had the thoughtful, literate readers, so the only way to expand his readership is to attact the lovers of pure shlock, hence this ridiculous cover, which is even worse than that of OBW (the worst Wolfe cover up to that point). I shudder to think of what lies ahead . . . .


Falcon




On Wed, 09 August 2000, whorl-errors@lists.best.com wrote:

> 
> 
> -------------- BEGIN whorl.v011.n013 --------------
> 
>     001 - "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.v - RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue mysteries)
>     002 - "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.v - RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012
>     003 - "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.v - IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's book]
>     004 - Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt. - Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
>     005 - Michael Andre-Driussi <ma - (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk (2)
>     006 - akt@attglobal.net         - In Green's Cover
>     007 - Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt. - Inhumi Secret
>     008 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
>     009 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
>     010 - Adam Stephanides <adamste - IGJ: altar scene
> 
> WHORL Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.1 ---------------
> 
> From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
> Subject: RE: "Wijzer warned me" (more Blue mysteries)
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:57:39 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>     charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319@lists1.best.com>
> 
> In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.5
> 
> "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu> wrote
> Subject: more Blue mysteries
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:18:13 -0400
> 
> 4) What does "Wijzer warned me" on page 366 refer to?
> 
> I don't have the book with me at work, but when I read this line I went back
> and reread Horn's conversation with Wijzer and figured this out (I think).
> Wijzer said something to the effect that eventually Horn would change so
> that even his own sons wouldn't recognize him.
> 
> Chris
> -----
> Christopher D. Hall
> Aerospace and Ocean Engineering
> Virginia Tech
> Blacksburg, VA  24061-0203
> (540) 231-2314
> (540) 231-9632 (FAX)
> http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.2 ---------------
> 
> From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
> Subject: RE: Digest whorl.v011.n012
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:01:52 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>     charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319@lists1.best.com>
> 
> In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8
> 
> From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
> Subject: IGJ Thoughts
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500
> A few thoughts.
> 
> [snip]
> 
>     7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
> Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
> unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....
> 
> 
> I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there are
> annotations by Hide or Hoof
> saying that
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.3 ---------------
> 
> From: "Chris Hall" <chall@aoe.vt.edu>
> Subject: IGJ Thoughts [editing of Horn's book]
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:03:05 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>     charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16319@lists1.best.com>
> 
> In MESSAGE whorl.v011.n012.8 
> 
> From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
> Subject: IGJ Thoughts
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 -0500
> A few thoughts.
> 
> [snip]
> 
>     7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
> Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
> unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....
> 
> 
> I think it was edited, at least read by his family, since in OBW there 
> are annotations by Hide or Hoof saying that Nettle has read it.  Don't
> remember the page number though.
> 
> Chris
> -----
> Christopher D. Hall
> Aerospace and Ocean Engineering
> Virginia Tech
> Blacksburg, VA  24061-0203
> (540) 231-2314
> (540) 231-9632 (FAX)
> http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~chall 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.4 ---------------
> 
> From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
> Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:25:23 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> References: <200008091600.JAA00219@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007240346.UAA17302@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
> In-Reply-To: <200008091634.JAA16316@lists1.best.com>
> 
> At 12:32 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:
> >>    4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human
> >>characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God"
> >>souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become
> >>clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not
> >>join the projection. 
> >
> >Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human". 
> 
> Good point. Of course, as you note, Oreb talks. Also, there is a distance
> between reptiles and mammals that might figure in.
> 
> Nutria
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.5 ---------------
> 
> From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
> Subject: (whorl) IGJ, Major Spoiler re Silk (2)
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:55:30 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> References: <200008081624.JAA25409@lists1.best.com>
>  <200008081510.IAA22603@lists1.best.com>
> In-Reply-To: <200008081658.JAA11109@lists1.best.com>
> 
> >My sense of it is that Silk committed suicide (with knife) by himself next
> >to Hyacinth in her coffin.
> 
> To expand this and add to it:
> 
> 1) I think that Silk really crossed the Rubicon and slashed himself,
> offering his own body as a funeral sacrifice, just as I think Horn's body
> gave out on him against his will to live and struggle on Green.  I don't
> think Silk just thinking, "Gosh, I could just die right now, I'm so sad"
> would be nearly enough.
> 
> 2) Because I think Silk killed himself, I think Horn has a very
> different/revised impression of the real man behind the mask that was first
> created by the politics of Viron and later embellished/enshrined within his
> work TBOTLS.  Silk's suicide is definitely non-heroic, even without a
> Catholic angle.  This factor plays in the whole "Horn/Silk Tangle."
> 
> 3) Metempsychosis, the transmigration of souls.  My sense of what the
> Neighbors did and how they explained it is this: Silk wanted to die, and
> was dying (but this was fixable); Horn wanted to live, and was dying; so
> Horn's spirit (and probably his soul, if it is a separate thing within this
> context) was put into Silk's body, and Silk's spirit/soul went elsewhere.
> "Spirit Weak, Flesh Strong" and "Spirit Strong, Flesh Weak" into "Spirit
> Strong, Flesh Strong" (and some discards of weak flesh, weak spirit).
> 
> 4) Seems to me that while Horn knows where Horn is (in Silk's body), and he
> knows that Silk is not there (except as a "ghostly" residue, like the seeds
> left after a god has possessed a Vironese person for a while), he does not
> know where Silk's non-corporal part is.  Two immediate options are: Silk's
> spirit/soul has gone on to Mainframe/heaven (in which case nobody is ever
> going to see him on Blue); Silk's spirit/soul has been installed into
> another body, perhaps one that doesn't have a such a melancholic tinge (in
> which case he might appear on Blue at any moment).  I don't think that Horn
> thinks that Silk is in Horn's old body on Green: if he did, his
> descriptions of "Silk" would sound more like the shorter bald guy we know
> Horn looked like when he set out from Lizard Island: still, it is possible
> that this is what the Neighbors did, but I tend to think it is not (I think
> the Horn body is dead and decomposed).
> 
> Now, whether "Passilk" is a creation from before or after the suicide
> remains to be seen.  If after, well then, that's where Silk went--into
> Mainframe (but even then he could download into a human host).
> 
> =The Horn/Silk Tangle=
> 
> As we keep pointing out, the majority of the people in TBOSS know Silk only
> through reading TBOLS, they do not have firsthand experience.
> 
> The "Silk" they know, then, is a step or two removed from real-life.  And
> Horn is in a unique position to know, first-hand, how far off his own
> boyhood hero-worshipping version was.
> 
> But the world of Blue seems to really need a hero exactly like the Silk of
> TBOLS (crop failures, slavery, wars of expansion are just a few of the
> problems marring the "paradise" of a new world).  And as an architect of
> that hero, Horn seems to have volunteered/been drafted to become the hero.
> 
> Paradoxically, this means that Horn must become more like "Silk" and less
> like Silk; he must become the fiction, not the warts-and-all fact.  So
> things are being burned away: bits of Silk, bits of Horn.
> 
> 
> On to the editing of Horn's first book (OBW), but not his second book
> (IGJ): yes, this =is= something very interesting.  OBW has five frames
> (Blue, Green, Whorl, present, and future), but IGJ has only two (Green and
> present); we have no indication that Horn returned home, nor even his book
> IGJ being read by his family.  Things are very uncertain, suddenly.
> 
> With regard to the next volume, I have a suspicion that there will be even
> =less= about the whorl, directly and indirectly, then there is about Green
> in IGJ: rather like how Sainte Anne is in 5HC (you =think= you've been
> there, but you've really just read a forgery and a traveller's diary about
> the place).
> 
> =mantis=
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.6 ---------------
> 
> From: akt@attglobal.net
> Subject: In Green's Cover
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:35:15 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>     charset="Windows-1252"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> References: <200008091634.JAA16319@lists1.best.com>
> 
> Got the book today and brought it home. And hid it from my houseguest!
> Whoa--that cover! An amalgam of Ben Franklin and Joe Lieberman takes a
> stroll with an octopoidal Highwayman! No, I couldn't face the (at best)
> politely raised eyebrows or (worse) outright snickering that would have
> been my lot had this been openly displayed!
> 
> -alga
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.7 ---------------
> 
> From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
> Subject: Inhumi Secret
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:06:15 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> References: <200008091634.JAA16316@lists1.best.com>
>  <200008091600.JAA00219@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007240346.UAA17302@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
>  <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
> In-Reply-To: <200008091812.LAA03996@lists1.best.com>
> 
>     I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for
> the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,
> also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being
> willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.
>     I submit that the eucharist the Outsider leads Horn to perform indicates
> that this will turn out to be the answer. That's the meaning of the
> eucharist, for by eating the death of Jesus into ourselves, we become able
> to die for our enemies as He died for His.
>     That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing
> of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love
> the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.
>     When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire
> this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather
> than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it
> will not annihilate them but transform them somehow.
>     I bet that Horn gives his life for Jahlee before it's all over.
>     I also bet that when it's all over, the Memoirs of Severian, the Book of
> Silk, and the Book of Horn will be seen as a progression. Severian never
> really learns much about love, and certainly never dies for anyone. He does
> grow and mature, but not as much as Silk. Silk makes much more progress,
> but Horn will make the most. The triptich of their lives will make one
> thematic narrative of personal growth and maturation into Christlikeness.
>     I cannot help but think of the Casher O'Neill stories of Cordwainer Smith,
> though I don't know if these influenced Wolfe at all. They deal with
> politics, spirituality, and religion progressively, as "On the Gem Planet"
> is a "mirror for princes"; "On the Wind Planet" is about conversion; and
> "On the Sand Planet" is about the application of that conversion back into
> the world. In a very broad way, Wolfe's three narratives follow the same
> kinds of themes: in the real world, apart from the real world (on the
> whorl), and back into the real world. Just a thought.
>     But I'll bet I'm right about the secret.
> 
> Patera Nutria
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.8 ---------------
> 
> From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:55:59 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> References: <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
>      <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com> <200008091600.JAA00219@lists1.best.com>
> 
> Jim Jordan wrote:
> 
> >         1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed
> > clear to me.
> 
> Not to me.  What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into
> someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will
> be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another
> there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning)  Nothing about
> moving Silk's spirit at all.  And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will
> be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man."
> 
> --Adam
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.9 ---------------
> 
> From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:11:31 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> References: <200008091634.JAA16316@lists1.best.com>
>      <200008091600.JAA00219@lists1.best.com>
>      <200007240346.UAA17302@lists1.best.com>
>      <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com>
>      <200007210238.TAA24235@lists1.best.com> <200008100052.RAA23539@lists1.best.com>
> 
> Jim Jordan wrote:
> > 
> >         I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for
> > the inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,
> > also to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being
> > willing to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.
> >[snip]
> >         That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing
> > of all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love
> > the lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.
> >         When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire
> > this characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather
> > than destroy humans. This will "destroy" the inhumi, though I suspect it
> > will not annihilate them but transform them somehow.
> 
> I don't think that this is the secret, for a couple of reasons.  Fr one
> thing, it doesn't fit several of the things we know about the secret: it
> doesn't explain why the inhumi drink human blood, it doesn't have
> anything to do with Krait's mother drinking from Sinew, and it doesn't
> explain the Neighbor's remark on p. 21.
> 
> For another thing, iirc (I don't have the book with me) in OBW Horn says
> explicitly that if humans could use the secret it would turn the inhumi
> back into the unintelligent predators they originally were.  So if
> humans did come to "love the inhumi," they would presumably refuse to
> apply the secret (since the inhumi have no wish to lose their
> intelligence). 
> 
> --Adam
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n013.10 ---------------
> 
> From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
> Subject: IGJ: altar scene
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
> sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
> knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)
> 
> Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?
> 
> --Adam
> 
> 
> --------------- END whorl.v011.n013 ---------------
> 
> 
> *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:45:41 

At 10:31 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>At 8:06 PM -0500 8/9/00, Jim Jordan wrote:
>>	I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men 
>>must die for
>>the inhumi.
>
>Nutria,
>
>You know, I really like this idea. It seems somehow very right. The 
>only problem with it is that I really find it hard to see how Horn 
>could have used it as a credible threat against the inhumi. They seem 
>to have a pretty realistic idea of what humans are capable of, so I 
>don't know why they would be at all worried about Horn telling this 
>fact to anyone else. And way would anyone else believe it?
>
>Frankly, after reading IGJ, I no longer believe that Wolfe has any 
>intention of directly revealing the secret of the inhumi in the last 
>book, so we will probably be able to keep up this guessing game 
>indefinitely.

	Yeah, you're probably right on both counts. That's what happens when you
stay up too late and get inspired to write a post.
	I'm still inclined to think what I wrote may turn out to be a theme in the
book, but perhaps not the secret. If the secret is something that Horn
could pull out of the hat and apply instantly any time he wants, then it is
not something that humans have to mature into, but a technique of some sort.
	And I agree that we're not going to be TOLD the secret.

Nutria


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ thoughts SPOILERS
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:49:46 

At 08:40 AM 8/10/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Adam Stephanides wrote:
>
>>Jim Jordan wrote:
>>
>>>         1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn.
>That seemed
>>> clear to me.
>>
>.
>>Not to me.  What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into
>>someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will
>>be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another
>>there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning)  Nothing about
>>moving Silk's spirit at all.  And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will
>>be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man."
>
>Also note that is says "instead of two dying men" which implies to me that
>Silk was already dying and was not just in deep despair contemplating
>suicide.

	Yeah. I did not remember right. We aren't told what might have happened to
Silk's soul. My guess is that he is dead. For Silk to die and to pass on
his gifts to another in the process (i.e., his genetically enhanced body)
is in keeping with the religious structure of the book. But with GW, you
never know!

Nutria


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: (whorl) Suicide
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:02:11 

>I also don't see the evidence that Silk had committed suicide.  Perhaps he
>was just at the end of his life span.  Many times when two people are joined
>in spirit and body for many years as he and Hyacinth (sp?) were when one
>dies the other doesn't live much longer.  Perhaps he was just dying from
>sadness/grief.
>
>What in the text leads the suicide believers to believe so?
>
>Dennis/Endy

	At the moment I'm on your side here. The fact that Silk is bleeding might
mean that he had cut himself, but it might also mean he's been defending
the house. Not only is Silk bleeding, but the house is completely torn up.
My first guess would be the Silk is dying from wounds he has received in
some conflict, and that Hyacinth is already dead from the same. 
	Dire interpretations of Wolfe events are tempting, but recall how often
they have been wrong. Weer in *Peace* was supposed to be a multiple
murderer, according to some, until Wolfe said that was nonsense. I assumed
Severian was a much worse character than Wolfe intended him to be. So, as
regards Silk's death, well, with GW you never know! But I would not jump to
the more dire reading, without good evidence.

Pat. Nut.


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) revised relativistic travel times
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:12:21 

At 12:25 PM 6/15/2000 -0700, you wrote:>
>The star of the Blue/Green system is thus around 864 light years away from
>Urth.  Not quite a "light chilliad," but rather close.
>
>=mantis=

Fun discussion. Hmmm. The conversations in IGJ hint that at least 1000
years have passed since the asteroid left Urth system. Is "light chiliad"
from somewhere in the narratives, or just your phrase? My guess would be
that a millennium is the least time it could be; perhaps quite a bit longer.

Pat. Nut.


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From: Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.com>
Subject: (whorl) another latecomer to the party finally finishes IGJ (spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 10:35:42 

Howdy folks - 

I've been working my way through the back issues of the Whorl list
digest having finally finished IGJ.  I still have a lot of questions
and I'm still processing it all, but one question in particular hit me
like a bolt from the blue: was the Cumaean from BOTNS an Inhuma?
Please shoot me down in flames if I'm clearly and demonstrably
overlooking some obvious reason for why that makes no sense.

Random impressions: There's something of a "C.S. Lewis moment" in IGJ
when Incanto and company visit Nessus.  The description was (IMO) very
evocative of the city of Charn in THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW, so much so
that at first I wondered if they had come to the Stone Town
(completely abandoned as opposed to merely squalid like Nessus), which
led to my above speculation.

Other literary "echoes": even if Green isn't Lune, I can't help but
detect a little bit of the influence of Brian Aldiss' HOTHOUSE (aka
THE LONG AFTERNOON OF EARTH) much as BOTLS seemed like another take on
Aldiss's generation ship in STARSHIP (of course Aldiss didn't invent
the concept, but he did have a priest as one of the major characters).
I think there was even a reference to green spiders (the moon of
HOTHOUSE is inhabited by giant vegetable spiders), though I'll have to
double check.  These are all very incidental and probably has more to
do with my sentimental attachment to the two Aldiss books.

Eco: a tip of the hat?

Shellac


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From: "Christopher Culver" <new_sun@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n014
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:04:19 GMT

Pat. Nut. wrote:
<Dire interpretations of Wolfe events are tempting, but recall how often
they have been wrong. Weer in *Peace* was supposed to be a multiple
murderer, according to some, until Wolfe said that was nonsense.>

Wolfe may have said that about the *multiple* murderer hypothesis, but in 
one interview he said the reader would have to figure out for himself if 
Weer killed the librarian, and he didn't say that suspicion of that would be 
nonsense.

Christopher CULVER <new_sun@hotmail.com>
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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: (whorl) Peace (spoilers)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:53:28 

At 06:04 PM 8/10/00 GMT, Christopher Culver wrote:
>Pat. Nut. wrote:
><Dire interpretations of Wolfe events are tempting, but recall how often
>they have been wrong. Weer in *Peace* was supposed to be a multiple
>murderer, according to some, until Wolfe said that was nonsense.>
>
>Wolfe may have said that about the *multiple* murderer hypothesis, but in 
>one interview he said the reader would have to figure out for himself if 
>Weer killed the librarian, and he didn't say that suspicion of that would be 
>nonsense.

Also, Weir could have killed multiple people without being a "multiple
murderer". The young boy and the man who was locked in the freezer could
both easily have been accidents, and I don't know if he did kill the
librarian; even if he did, that might conceivably not have been murder if
she'd had a weapon--I don't remember the details well, and I'm sure many of
them are well-hidden. 


-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: "Urash, Tom" <turash@firstam.com>
Subject: RE: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:19:59 



-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Stephanides [mailto:adamsteph@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:18 AM
To: whorl@lists.best.com
Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene


I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)

Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?

--Adam

The triple god? Father, son & holy ghost?


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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) light chiliad, my coin
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:39:12 

Nutria wrote:
>Fun discussion. Hmmm. The conversations in IGJ hint that at least 1000
>years have passed since the asteroid left Urth system. Is "light chiliad"
>from somewhere in the narratives, or just your phrase? My guess would be
>that a millennium is the least time it could be; perhaps quite a bit longer.

The term "light chiliad" is my own invention.

=mantis=



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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:56:29 

Urash, Tom wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Stephanides [mailto:adamsteph@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:18 AM
> To: whorl@lists.best.com
> Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
> 
> I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
> sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
> knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)
> 
> Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?
> 
> --Adam
> 
> The triple god? Father, son & holy ghost?

Perhaps, but I don't recall anywhere else where Horn indicates a belief
in the Outsider's multiple nature.  And even if he did, the unexplained
shift from singular to plural in the same sentence would still be very
odd if both referred to the Outsider.

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Suicide [SPOILER]
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:06:28 

Jim Jordan wrote:
> 
> >What in the text leads the suicide believers to believe so?
> >
> >Dennis/Endy
> 
>         At the moment I'm on your side here. The fact that Silk is bleeding might
> mean that he had cut himself, but it might also mean he's been defending
> the house. Not only is Silk bleeding, but the house is completely torn up.
> My first guess would be the Silk is dying from wounds he has received in
> some conflict, and that Hyacinth is already dead from the same.

It's not explicitly stated that Silk committed suicide (or even that it
is Silk and Hyacinth), but to me, the combination of Silk's bleeding,
the fact that Hyacinth is in her coffin and the bloodstained knife is by
Silk's hand, and the Neighbor's reference to Silk as "someone whose own
spirit is dying" make suicide, or at least self-mutilation, probable. 
If Silk had been defending himself and Hyacinth, he surely would have
bandaged his wounds before putting her in a coffin; nor would there be
any reason for the knife to be by his hand now.  It may be, though, that
Silk has slashed himself in a frenzy of grief rather than purposefully
committing suicide; this would fit the Neighbor's words as well, and his
frenzy could also explain the destruction in the house.

--Adam

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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Apologies
Date: 10 Aug 2000 16:34:34 

Oops -- in my last post, in my haste, I inadvertently sent along the entire digest.  Sorry all!

Falcon.

www.sff.net/people/stilskin
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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:50:27 

At 05:56 PM 8/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Perhaps, but I don't recall anywhere else where Horn indicates a belief
>in the Outsider's multiple nature.  And even if he did, the unexplained
>shift from singular to plural in the same sentence would still be very
>odd if both referred to the Outsider.
>
>--Adam

The same one and many is seen in the first paragraph of Nightside.
	I'd say that the Outsider comes with His retinue, which is the angels and
the dead saints. But a hint of the trinity cannot be excluded. 

Pat. Nut.


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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n015
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:02:19 PDT

Wombat wrote:
>At 06:04 PM 8/10/00 GMT, Christopher Culver wrote:
> >Pat. Nut. wrote:
> ><Dire interpretations of Wolfe events are tempting, but recall how often
> >they have been wrong. Weer in *Peace* was supposed to be a multiple
> >murderer, according to some, until Wolfe said that was nonsense.>
> >
> >Wolfe may have said that about the *multiple* murderer hypothesis, but in
> >one interview he said the reader would have to figure out for himself if
> >Weer killed the librarian, and he didn't say that suspicion of that would 
>be
> >nonsense.
>
>Also, Weir could have killed multiple people without being a "multiple
>murderer". The young boy and the man who was locked in the freezer could
>both easily have been accidents, and I don't know if he did kill the
>librarian; even if he did, that might conceivably not have been murder if
>she'd had a weapon--I don't remember the details well, and I'm sure many of
>them are well-hidden.


Dead-on about the multiple murderer question...  I believ Wolfe responded 
with something like "I'm trying to remember who killed who...  No, I don't 
think so."  If someone wants to dig out the exact question and answer, 
that'd be sweet of you.

Just to dig this one up again, the librarian did pull a gun on Weer when 
they went out to look for the non-existent treasure.  I got the distinct 
impression he killed her, from the conversation he had with Gold afterward.  
Also, that he was responsible for the deaths of at least the young boy and 
the man in the freezer, although that has been hotly contested by others on 
this list in the past...

Narwhal
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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Typhon's Home: Pas as Neighbor
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:08:53 

I've always wondered why Typhon targeted the Blue-Green system as the
Whorl's ultimate destination. (This assumes the ship did not end up there by
accident or miscalculation.)

Speculation: could this be because he himself actually hails from
Blue-Green? "Typhon," after all, is a mythic name, and according to Wolfe's
nomenclatural stratagem, this should make him an alien--so perhaps his
launching of the Whorl has merely been his way of returning home--one
grandiose beyond all believing, and not simply as some expatriate, or even a
legendary conqueror of various galactic realms, but as a god. Typhon has
also previously told Severian that "I was not born as I am, or born at all,
as you meant it," which to me implies a possible exogenetic origin; and both
Typhon and the Neighbors bear doubled body parts (heads vs. limbs), so
there's a relational twinship between the two. And what better army to
finally eradicate the dreaded inhumi than one consisting of chems and
taluses?

This might also explain the alliance between the Neighbors and the Mother
(since it appears to be the former that supplies the magic ring Seawrack
gives Horn). If she's truly Scylla, as I've proposed, they're not so much
aiding and abetting an alien intruder (I refuse to call her a wetback), but
one of their own native kin (if perhaps deracinated; there's evidence she's
resumed her old sea monster form if we're to believe Seawrack's "She's
another shape, very big" and "She doesn't look like a woman unless she makes
part of herself a woman." OBW, 244).

Possibly, if we could just make out a Neighbor's facial features, this might
provide a clue? (Or do the VP look like Horn?)

Robert Borski





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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers>
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:25:02 

Silk's Suicide.  On re-reading and reviewing mantis' comments I see where
more clearly where the suicide theory comes from.  On first hearing this, it
seemed so out of character for Silk, but then Silk running off madly after
Hyacinth and abandoning the landing party seemed so "out of character" too.
I guess if he had bad enough for Hy to abandon the mission the Outsider gave
him, then suicide in grief at her passing is reasonable too.

I know I'm going on about this but I think his running off after Hy and not
going to Blue was more of a shock to me than Queztal <sp?> being revealed as
an inhumus.

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: shannon wilde <swilde_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Him? Them?
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:49:59 

I'm sure this has probably been covered elsewhere, but
I've been away for a while.  (Sorry for any odd and
nonsensical posts-MS can do some weird numbers on
one!) Anyway, i have never been able to shake the
feeling of relationship between Sev and the Outsider,
since Pas/Typhon is twoheaded and/or otherwise plural,
and of course Sev is plural too.  And somewhere, Silk
describes the Outsider as twoheaded, but unlike Pas,
in that one of the faces is female, and the Outsider
was once something of a storm god as well, according
to the Chrasmologic Writings.  Maybe this is what
Wolfe is referring to when Horn turns around and uses
a peculiar pronoun.  Maybe not as Catholic an
interpretation as i ought to use, though.  I finally
got my copy of IGJ, so please don't post this if too
irrelevant, uninformed, etc.  so nice to be reading
you all again!                 Still Tottering

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From: "Seth Lombardi" <sethlombardi@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Typhon's Duality
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:05:16 CDT

Okay - longtime lurker here. Must admit that I haven't read IGJ yet, but 
there was so much in the last few posts that I just couldn't hold back.

Okay, if Typhon was Neighbor-Spawned or related it _would_ help finally 
explain the whole Why The Whorl Anyway question, but Typhon was such a 
seemingly sinister and human critter that I have a hard time buying it. His 
duality is parasitic and completely antithetical to both the Outsider and (I 
think - I've only read OBW) the semi-enlightened noble savage-ness of the 
Neighbors. Then again, the Neighbors ain't exactly what I'd call easy to 
relate to, so perhaps Typhon was some sort of proto-neighbor, from back when 
they were a bit more barbaric. On the other hand, I've always liked the way 
Wolfe makes most evil human created - even we seeded Erebus and such. 
(Uh...right?)
All this talk of duality makes me think this - The vast majority of animal 
life on Blue has eight legs, instead of our four legged variety. It's no 
surprise then that the dominant humanoid life form on Blue has four legs 
instead of our two. It's like the place is bursting with duality. And I, 
uh...really don't know what to do with that. Anybody?

Oh, and on the subject of Silk's suicide - I really wouldn't be too 
surprised. Silk contemplating tossing himself from the airship and the 
ensuing conversation with Horn seemed to me to be the defining moment of the 
entire book of the long sun. Never trusted that Hyacinth woman or Silk for 
being so gaga for her. I mean - nice guy but sometimes not too bright, 
y'know? Then again, how many Wolfe protagonists really need to chill when it 
comes to the ladies? Severian uses em like kleenex and Silk is a human 
doormat. Poor dopes.

Seth
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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Typhoon's Duality
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:25:11 

Seth Lombardi wrote:

< Okay, if Typhon was Neighbor-Spawned or related it _would_ help finally
< explain the whole Why The Whorl Anyway question, but Typhon was such a
< seemingly sinister and human critter that I have a hard time buying it.
His
< duality is parasitic and completely antithetical to both the Outsider and
(I
< think - I've only read OBW) the semi-enlightened noble savage-ness of the
< Neighbors. Then again, the Neighbors ain't exactly what I'd call easy to
< relate to, so perhaps Typhon was some sort of proto-neighbor, from back
when
< they were a bit more barbaric. On the other hand, I've always liked the
way
< Wolfe makes most evil human created - even we seeded Erebus and such.


Or could Typhoon be a similar aberration to Asimov's "Mule"?  Not typical of
any of the other Neighbors?


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Clute's review of IGJ
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:42:30 

SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN
GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)
Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?

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From: David Lomax <dlomax@idirect.com>
Subject: (whorl) Clute's revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:19:02 


vermoulian@yahoo.com wrote

> SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN
> GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)
> Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
> Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?
>

Argh!  Clute beat me to it  -- maybe others did too.  I've been
deliberately not reading the list until I could get and read IGJ.  Just
finished today.  On the weekend, while we were on a long car trip, my
girlfriend offered to read a couple of chapters to me.  Around the
middle of the novel.  While she was reading,I suddenly burst out, "oh,
my god!"  When she got over her shock at thinking we were about to get
into an accident, she asked what I was talking about.  "What if Silk is
actually an inhumu?" I said.

She doesn't read Wolfe and had no idea what was going on in the novel.
But she agreed that it might be a possibility.

As I read on, I became more and more convinced.  I could be unconvinced
by some dazzling logic, but it sure seems to me that our humble narrator
may not be completely human.  There are some counter-arguments:  Oreb
still likes him, for one thing.  But what about that bit near the end
when Horn/Silk talks ruefully about his appetite being too great?

So there I was thinking, hey, maybe nobody else has talked about this.
Maybe I can make an original contribution to the list instead of just
lurking all my life.  And what happens, but Clute beats me to it.  I'll
get you for this, Clute, if it's the third-last thing I do.

And the inhumu secret?  Could it just be that if humans gave themselves
willingly to the inhumu, then the inhumu would be incapable of killing
the humans?

And weren't those last few chapters just glorious?

David Lomax


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Clute's revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:52:21 

At 01:19 AM 8/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>As I read on, I became more and more convinced.  I could be unconvinced
>by some dazzling logic, but it sure seems to me that our humble narrator
>may not be completely human.  There are some counter-arguments:  Oreb
>still likes him, for one thing.  But what about that bit near the end
>when Horn/Silk talks ruefully about his appetite being too great?

	The appetite stuff is typical of Silk, though. He was always semi-fasting.
	I'd like to see some positive evidence for this thesis. The last line of
the novel might be a clue, but only with a lot more evidence.

Patera Nutria


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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:12:13 

> SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN
> GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)
> Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
> Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?

David Lomax has already mentioned the Oreb angle, and it seems hard to
believe that Incanto-the-inhumu could fool the wise bird whereas Quetzal,
the Bean and Jahlee couldn't.

Yet another contraindication is Horn's handwriting. The inhumi have at best
terrible writing and Horn/Incanto has handwritten two books, at least the
first of which (and no doubt the second and third) has been read by Horn's
wife and children with no editorial comment about Horn's rather execrable
penmanship. Ditto for Inclito's mother, who receives handwritten
instructions on how she can remedy her recent ill turn in health ("Er, what
are these words, Incanto? 'Necklace of garlic'?"). And isn't it likely that
if Horn were able to manipulate his physical appearance, he'd at least try
to appear fully sighted or without the wound in his side? (Not sure how
shapeshifting works if you have scars or wounds.) Or that the Neighbors
would aid and abet a former vampiric nemesis?

And lastly while there is a precedent in Wolfean fiction--Victor Trenchard
killing and taking the place of John Marsch in FIFTH HEAD--at least it is
identifiable when it happens, something I'm not sure Clute's hornjacking is.
(Who exactly is subsuming Horn's personality? Krait? Some other inhumu? And
when/where does it occur?)

In other words list me among the unconvinced (as I am about Silk's suicide,
since Catholics that die by their own hand are forbidden not only burial in
Catholic cemetaries, but Heaven), although I do admit I'm willing to
consider further evidence.

Robert Borski


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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 05:01:35 

> SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN
> GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)
> Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
> Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?

My immediate reaction is outrage. That seems to me like the horrible
yahoo Southern racism of the civil rights era when to sympathize was to
compromise in the minds (so-called) of the racists. Horn is not an
inhumu, no way. He has become a remarkably tolerant human (maybe
superhuman) person, able at last in this book to react to another (maybe
not-so-human) person on a personal level, not generically. I think that
Wolfe has achieved a real breakthrough with both sexism and racism in
IGJ. Because I am female, I welcome the sexist breakthrough particularly
and the almost poetic way that it is celebrated. But I, and you, should
not ignore the fact that the inhumi are metaphorically of another race.

-alga


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From: Bjjp2@aol.com
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:10:58 EDT

In a message dated 8/15/00 10:29:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
whorl-errors@lists.best.com writes:

<< SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN
 GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)
 Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
 Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions? >>

How about "Holy Shit!"  Sorry, that's the best I can do.  Need time . . . 
Need time to think . . .

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n018
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:30:25 


I'm with alga--Horn as an inhuma seems pointless and wrong.  I may
turn out to the wrong, but this seems like another example of Clute's
real talent for working out Wolfe's mysteries working itself into an
over-clever frenzy (ahem, momma Autarch).

What evidence is there to suggest this, in contrast to the
considerable evidence against it (the writing, Oreb, etc.)?  On the
other hand, this is a better review than Clute did of OBW.


It does seem possible that Silk was committing suicide--the blood was
very possibly from the funeral sacrifices (which I picture him doing
alone) for Hyacinth, but Horn says "my hands and arms and face and
neck were bleeding" which does sound as if Silk (assuming it is Silk,
which seems very very likely) has been cut.  On the other hand,
bleeding hands, arms, face and neck seems like a pretty extreme and
messy approach to suicide---it sounds more like Silk has been attacked
and since his spirit wants to die, he hasn't bothered to deal with his
wounds--suicide by omission, if you will.  At any rate, the fact that
suicide (while of sound mind) would be damning seems not to suggest
against the idea--that there is now one whole man means, I take it,
that Silk has a chance to escape his despair (the increasing
intrusions of his personality through the narrative suggest that he is
indeed moving away from his catatonia).


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:48:45 

At 02:12 AM 8/16/00 -0500, you wrote:
>In other words list me among the unconvinced (as I am about Silk's suicide,
>since Catholics that die by their own hand are forbidden not only burial in
>Catholic cemetaries, but Heaven), although I do admit I'm willing to
>consider further evidence.

<AOL>Me too.</AOL>

It is consummately possible that Clute has noticed something I have
missed--in fact, I would bet money that he has, many times, in IGJ
alone--but this just feels wrong. 

Kevin Maroney		kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor	New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:00:20 


Nah... Even Clute hedges his bets, by saying maybe he's an inhumu (spells
it wrong, as "inhuma"... or does he mean that?), maybe he's an aquastor,
maybe something else. My main reaction is why should Wolfe repeat his
effects? He's already written "Fifth Head" and The Book of the New Sun. 

I agree completely with alga that having Horn become a better human being
seems to be central to this novel. One might even imagine an
Inferno/Purgatorio/Paradiso triptych in Severian/Silk/Horn. 

Finally, the evidence is all against it. Horn is shown writing, riding
horses, using weapons (even the azoth, at one point), all sorts of stuff
that inhumi don't do. Oreb likes him. He eats (not much, but he does).  To
sustain Clute's idea one would have to assume not only an unreliable
narrator, but a positively misleading one.

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

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From: Sheila Herndon <skherndon@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Clute's review of IGJ
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:30:27 



> --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v011.n018.3
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?=
> <vermoulian@yahoo.com>

> SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of
> IN
> GREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of
> interest)
> Clute declares that it is "reasonably clear" that
> Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?

delurking - well, I have been wondering about that.
Horn goes on and on to Hide about how to detect
Inhumu - make-up, scales, lack of eating. And near
to this point, Horn repeatedly talks about his
lack of eating. Also, perhaps the "suicide" scene
with who we presume to be Silk is actually a scene
with an Inhumu who has fed on Silk (blood everywhere)
and has part of Silk's essense, and Horn is
transported into the Silk/Inhumu body.

But no one ever comments on Horn's appearance (wrt
the other warning signs of an inhumu). I also
cannot remmeber temperature conversations - that would
be another telling point.

sh

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) The Revelation: John Clute to the Whorl list
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:10:36 

Earlier today I asked John Clute to clarify or
substantiate his speculation as to Horn being an
inhumu; this is his reply:

--- John Clute wrote: 
> Dear Nick,

> Thanks for message.
> 
  1) My guess that Horn/Silk _might_ be an inhumu, as
well as 
> sharing other conditions of being as his Corridor
> branches, is the kind of 
> tentative shot you lay into the dark in the midnight
> middle of a Wolfe 
> novel. 
> 2) I kept getting haunting echoes of _The
> Fifth Head of Cerberus_ 
> , and before I reread the entire _Book of the Short
> Sun_ as part of the 
> process of reviewing the final volume, I'm going to
> try to reread 
> _Cerberus_ too. Specific haunt: at what point does
> Horn/Silk begin to find 
> it difficult to eat human food? It would be a moment
> like (but almost 
> certainly not identical to) the moment in _Cerberus_
> when the shapechanger 
> native takes over the human's diary and records his
> difficulty with 
> handwrting.
> 3) When Horn/Silk warns somebody (Hide?
> don't remember at the 
> moment) about inhumi, he specifies identifying
> signs, such as a 
> disinclination to eat normal food, a moment which
> has all the _ring_ of a 
> Wolfeian revelation.
> 4) Obvious things like his calling Krait and
> Jahlee his son and 
> daughter. Obvious counterindications: hair on head.
> 5) My reading of the _Short Sun_ is very
> superficial, so far; what 
> do _you_ guys think is going on?
> 
> Best,
> John Clute
> 


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From: "Jim Henley" <jhenley@nas-corp.com>
Subject: (whorl) RE: The Revelation: John Clute to the Whorl list
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:26:02 

:> -----Original Message-----
:> From: Nicholas Gevers [mailto:vermoulian@yahoo.com]
:> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:11 PM
:>
:> Earlier today I asked John Clute to clarify or
:> substantiate his speculation as to Horn being an
:> inhumu; this is his reply:
:>
:> --- John Clute wrote:
:> >
:>   1) My guess that Horn/Silk _might_ be an inhumu, as
:> well as
:> > sharing other conditions of being as his Corridor
:> > branches, is the kind of
:> > tentative shot you lay into the dark in the midnight
:> > middle of a Wolfe
:> > novel.

This will sound pissy of me, but why the _fuck_ does Clute turn the
privately-acknowledged "shot in the dark" into the publically-proclaimed "it
is 'reasonably clear' that Horn/Silk is himself an inhumu?"

By gum, it's more annoying even than people whingeing about the covers!

Best,


(Heated) Plasma


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From: Michael Purdy <mcp@jhu.edu>
Subject: (whorl) Horn/Silk as inhumu
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:42:14 

Things I find tempting about the idea:
*Could key into the secret of the inhumu:  what if giving yourself 
willingly to the inhumu somehow allows you to take them over?  Not just for 
a while, but for good.  They drain you, you die, and are reborn in them.  A 
very Christian way to defeat an enemy--by helping them.
*Might make the baffling passage near the end of OBW where Horn and Babbie 
suffer from identity confusion seem a little clearer--perhaps Horn had to 
drain some of Babbie's blood, and in doing so temporarily took on his 
consciousness/frame of reference.  Note problems with this below, though.
*Resonates with the sudden revelation that someone you never suspected was 
telling the story at the end of BOTLS.
*Explains the oft-mentioned lack of appetite in Horn.
*Explains his baffling tendency to keep adopting inhumi.

Problems:
*If Horn being an inhumu keys into the Babbie switch, then the timeline is 
knocked completely out of whack.  IIRC, the brief Babbie switch takes place 
before Horn arrives at Parjorucu (don't have the book w/me), when the only 
inhumu he's encountered is Krait, and he and Krait are both still alive and 
kicking at this point.  Unless Horn became an inhumu back when one of them 
was draining Sinew...is that why Krait's blood makes for such a reviving 
meal in the pit?  Nah, Sinew's his oldest kid, so that couldn't possibly 
work could it?  Sinew was young when the attack occurred, so Horn and 
Nettle probably hadn't had the twins yet.
*All of the above fails to account for what went on in the body-switch with 
Silk in IGJ.  Unless, as someone was speculating, Silk is an inhumu too at 
the point Horn jumps in.  That just really seems like a bit too much...
*Handwriting and hair are both good objections.

And yet, and yet... I still find the idea tempting.
Michael


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:04:01 


Thanks for the vote of confidence, several of you. I have a thought
about Horn's eating habits, which certainly puzzled me too on first
reading. It's awfully Wolfean. The fact is that the Horn body was
sturdier, stockier and needed more food than the Silk body. Horn's
habits and appetites remain as they were, but he must consciously curb
them in his new body, or he would soon be overweight. But he DOES eat,
unlike Fava, sweet little bean.

-alga


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Further outrage
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:18:33 

Furthermore, with that beautiful last sentence, Horn is protecting
Jahlee in the best way he can. As he tried, unsuccessfuly to protect
poor cold-blooded Fava in the wintry night, nearly killing himself too
as she inadvertently leached away his warmth. Fava's life could have
been saved if she had lain between two humans (or Babbie, or any other
warmblooded creature), but Horn could not take that chance and had to
try alone. Just as he buried her alone. The entire point and meaning of
this book is lost in the argument, and there's not a shred of evidence
for it other than the usual Wolfean snake-charming. I really feel
offended by it.

-alga


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) RE: Clute's Review of IGJ <SPOILERS>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:29:23 

Horn as Inhumu.  Interesting premise.  Definitely shocked me.

Continuing the Pros and Cons of Horn being a inhumu.

Pros:

He hasn't returned to Nettle although it seems to be within his power.

He states he can't return to Seawrack.  Is this why?


Cons:

If when he died on Green an inhumu decided to inpersonate Horn, or drank
from his essense and became Horn, then where would the story of the Neighbor
transferring Horn's essense to another body fit in.

Why wouldn't Horn have died in the snow from exposure as Fava did.  He said
that she benefited from his body heat but he got nothing from her (cold
blooded).





Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Clute and other Questions
Date: 17 Aug 2000 06:23:35 

I, too, considered the possibility that Horn was an inhumu, only to reject it on the basis of the reasons already given by Mr. Borski et al.  Still, Wolfe puts a lot of clues into IGJ that Horn has become very inhumu-like -- there seems to be a gradual blurring of the distinctions between human and inhumu, or a movement towards some kind of genuine metamorphosis that changes the current parasitic relationship to one that's more symbiotic, if not something above and beyond even that.  The business about eating, which is mentioned more than once, is just too suggestive.  But again, there are too many examples of Horn violating the conditions for being an inhumu.  Of course, those conditions are communicated to us by Horn himself, so perhaps should be taken with a few grains of salt.

I've jumped back into the Short Sun in order to get the most out of rereading OBW and IGJ, and three things have, after the first volume, struck me as interesting.  I apologize if these points have been raised before.

The first has to do with Oreb, who dies and comes back to life.  Here is the first example, in the Short Sun, of a theme Wolfe returns to again in OBW and IGJ, that of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, with a Christian twist in that Oreb dies and then is returned to life.  But how does Oreb come back?  Silk notes how intelligent Oreb is following his resurrection.  I can't help but wonder if Oreb has been possessed by one of the gods of Mainframe, if not the Outsider him/her/itself.  Any thoughts?

The second is more of an observation.  Hyacinth is the name of a flower, according to the convention for naming biochemical females in the Whorl.  Yet it is also the name of a gemstone, which follows the convention for naming of chems.  Much is made early on of the sexual possibilities between biochems and chems; Maytera Rose is especially vigilant and, indeed, paranoid.  So I can't help wondering here whether Hyacinth is actually a chem.

Along these lines, the third is what, exactly, does Wolfe mean by calling characters like Silk biochemical?  Why not just biological?  Are Silk and the others not human in the way that we would understand the term?  The use of the terms chems and biochems seems to suggest the two share a certain heritage.  Perhaps the very mechanism of possession, and the idea of the souls of the dead returning to Mainframe, are hints of the ways in which Silk and other biochemicals are not true humans but rather hybrids of human and chemical (by which I understand something closer to, say, a robot with AI).

Falcon


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Another message from Clute: read it in full!
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:12:58 

Yesterday I relayed the gist of the list's reactions
to the "Clute Revelation" to Clute himself (if in so
doing I misrepresented anyone's viewpoint, I
apologise). Below is what Clute has since written to
me, including his remarks on the points the list has
raised.

--- John Clute wrote: 

> Dear Nick,
>         Interesting responses, which sort of run the
> gamut of what I think 
> about the notion, or intuition--rather than
> thought-through 
> hypothesis--that Horn/Silk may be an inhumu; or
> that, perhaps more 
> cogently, that Gene Wolfe is allowing us to consider
> the possibility at 
> this stage of the enterprise.
>         As I'm sure you know, the third volume is
> due out soon; and as I'm 
> sure you know, Wolfe--unlike his procedure with
> _Long Sun_ --apparently 
> wrote the whole text before any of it was published:
> so I do live in the 
> expectation that nothing here is inadvertent, and
> that everything 
> discovered will, as with _New Sun_ enrich the whole.
>         Comments follow.
> > 
> > 1) One member agrees with you, and is cross you
> > expressed the idea before he could.
>         ---Sorry about that. To make it worse, you
> might note that I 
> mentioned the inhumu notion very briefly in my
> earlier review of the first 
> volume, also in _SFW_ .
> 
> > 2) Several others are thoughtful, saying they need
> > time to reflect.
>         ---Me too.
>         
> > 3) A feminist feels you're engaging in the
> reactionary
> > error of assuming that because someone sympathises
> > with the enemy he must be one of them; in her
> view,
> > Horn is demonstrating the great human virtue of
> > interspecies empathy, not betraying an alien
> identity.
>         ---A bit confused by this, as there are
> several floating 
> assumptions in here. Unless you were just
> identifying one of the list as a 
> feminist so I could sort folk out, it doesn't quite
> seem to me that the 
> issue before us is a feminist issue. But would be
> glad to get a 
> different take. It may be reactionary to assume that
> if you're not with us 
> you're with them, but the application of the
> principle here presupposes 
> the inhumi as enemy, a notion I'm very leary of at
> this stage. I would go 
> so far as to suggest that Horn/Silk (whoever they
> are) is more concerned 
> with family than species; and that the book is
> expanding, as are 
> Horn/Silk's Assumptions of different forms, through
> an expansion of the 
> idea of family. 
> 
> > 4) Most criticism of your hypothesis rests on
> textual
> > details: if Horn is an inhumu, why doesn't Oreb
> > perceive this? If Horn is an inhumu, how can he
> write
> > his text with such facility, whereas inhumi in
> general
> > can hardly write at all? When is the transition
> from
> > human to inhumu supposed to have occurred? If Horn
> is
> > capable of shapeshifting, why doesn't he do away
> with
> > his injuries such as his missing eye? And so it
> goes.
>         ---All good points, it strikes me (see
> comment after next 
> paragraph). The question here about when he might
> have changed is the 
> question I asked: when did he begin to find it
> difficult to eat human 
> food? Chronology is so complex in the text that I
> could not begin to give 
> an answer to this on the basis of one reading--or,
> for that matter, work 
> it out to my satisfaction that this is an irrelevant
> track to follow.
>  
> > Basically, the Whorl list has been agreeing for
> the
> > last nine months that Horn is the (human) redeemer
> of
> > the humans of the three whorls, and that "the
> secret
> > of the inhumi", which Horn is sworn to protect,
> > relates somehow to that redemption: if humans
> achieve
> > goodness in themselves, the inhumi preying on them
> > will imbibe and emulate that goodness.
>         ---I'd be very disappointed if this were the
> case: by which I mean 
> I'd be disappointed if this were the "secret of the
> inhumi" which 
> we have as far as I know not yet been told--because
> 1) although the idea 
> seems transparently and conspicuously true 2) WE
> ALREADY KNOW IT. 
> _In Green's Jungles_ (I haven't chapter and verse
> here) seems to make it 
> extremely clear that inhumi take on the
> characteristics of those they 
> change into (as it were) as part of the process of
> feeding on them. 
>         The idea that the achievement of human
> goodness (which would 
> similarly transform the inhumi) seems to me, though
> very likely to be the 
> case, not to be an inhumi secret at all. 
>          My intuition about Horn/Silk is inchoate
> and absolutely not 
> defended by me unto death, unlike the way I got
> addicted, nearly 20 years 
> ago now, to the idea that Severian's mother was in
> fact the Autarch. (It 
> took a long time to lose the sweet-tooth of that
> particular notion.)
>         My intuition is based on a sense that
> somehow or other Horn/Silk's 
> nature-as-inhumu (if it is confirmed to be a fair
> take) is intrinsicate 
> with his relationship to the Neighbors, or
> whoever/whatever represents 
> them to him, inhumi (those inhumi who took on
> Neighborly nature) or ghost 
> or aquastors in the Corridors of Time or what. And
> that Horn/Silk as 
> inhumu as Neighbor might well "fool" Oreb, etc, etc.
>
> 
> Best,
> John 
> 


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:10:46 

I was searching for the IGJ review that other's have relayed some of the
details here, and instead found the OBW review that I had not read yet.

The first shock I had was what was relayed in Clute's latest response to the
whorl list.  That he mentioned the Horn/Silk/inhumi? possibility in that
review.

The second shock was reading his opinion that OBW is happening at the same
time as TBOTNS?  I had inferred from reading the whorl list that most were
of the opinion that OBW was at least 1000 years later than TBOTNS?  Do any
agree with Clute's timeframe estimates?

Thanks,
Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:31:48 

At 05:10 PM 8/17/00 -0500, Endymion (*) wrote:
>The second shock was reading his opinion that OBW is happening at the same
>time as TBOTNS?  I had inferred from reading the whorl list that most were
>of the opinion that OBW was at least 1000 years later than TBOTNS?  Do any
>agree with Clute's timeframe estimates?

I thought that the common wisdom was that the Whorl left Urth about 1000
years before _Book of the New Sun_ (during the time of Typhon) and had
spent 1000 years in transit (though only 358 years passed on-board because
of time dilation). Someone here--Robert Borski, I think--pegged the scene
towards the end of _Green_ as taking place during the swimming scene in
chapter 1 of _Shadow of the Torturer_, and I suspect he's right. 

*Must we assume that, with a name like that, Endymion is a monster? 

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Oreb/Pas
Date: 17 Aug 2000 18:47:24 

Continuing with my thoughts/questions about Oreb's death and resurrection.  Again apologies if this is old hat.

I wondered before whether Oreb, following his death prior to Silk's sacrifice, might not have been possessed by one of the gods of Mainframe, or perhaps even the Outsider.

This from pp. 91-92 of the hardcover Lake of the Long Sun:

   Oreb dropped onto Silk's shoulder, startling him into looking up; as he did, Oreb caught a lock of his straying hair and tugged at it.

    "He knows what you're feeling," Chenille said quietly.  "He would like to make you laugh, if he can."

     "He's a good bird -- a very good bird.  This isn't the first time he's come to me of his own accord."

     "You would take him with you, wouldn't you?  Even if you were sent to that administrative position?  Silk.  It isn't against some rule for augurs to keep pets?"

     "No. They're permitted."

     "So everything wouldn't be lost, even then."

Now Chenille in this passage has been possessed by, and is speaking as, Kypris.  Kypris, a minor goddess of love, who was, in Severian's Urth, the favorite mistress of Typhon/Pas, and who thus, by his favor, was invited aboard the Whorl as a disembodied goddess.  Chenille/Kypris's final line here is odd.  Why should she care so much if Oreb accompanies Silk?  Because Oreb is a good bird and a good friend to Silk?  That's hardly enough.  Recall that the other major gods have banded together to overthrow and destroy Pas.  Could it be that a portion of Pas has been preserved and downloaded into Oreb . . . all the better so that Pas can keep an eye on Silk, who as we know was genetically augmented and designed to serve as Pas's new body in Blue or Green (such, at least, is my memory of later developments or suppositions I've read on this list pertaining thereto).

So:  Oreb is a shard of Pas, perhaps not even fully conscious, the better to hide from his patricidal family, his only ally Kypris, his favorite on Urth, and a goddess equally detested by his family on the Whorl.

A final piece of evidence:

Later in that same conversation, Silk says:  

     "I even like Orchid, and every god" -- He would have stopped, but it was already too late -- "knows I felt sorry for her this afternoon."

     She [Chenille/Kypris] laughed softly.  "All the gods don't know.  Silk. . . .  One does.  Two."

Now who are those two gods?  One is surely Kypris herself, who manifested in the window of the manteion during the funeral of Orpine, Orchid's previously unacknowledged daughter.  But then who is the other?  On first reading I simply assumed it was the Outsider.  But now I'm not so sure.  Perhaps after all it refers to Pas . . . and if Pas is present in some way within Oreb, then the statement is literally accurate, for now Oreb/Pas, too, knows what Silk was feeling.  And of course, Chenille/Kypris began the conversation by noting that Oreb "knows what you're feeling."

Well, any thoughts/comments appreciated.  This is the third time I've read the first 2 books of the Short Sun, and the scales drop off more and more with each reading, but I've got a long way to go.

Falcon




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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) Oreb and his gods
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:28:00 

Falcon,

(Step one: you are talking about the Long Sun series, rather than the Short
Sun series.)

I don't know that it is "old hat," but then again I don't remember anybody
else besides Robert Borski (and lately myself) following this.  We have
been saying that Oreb is ridden by a god, sometimes, but not all the time;
just as Chenille is (sometimes ridden by Kypris); just as Tick is
(sometimes ridden by Sphigx).

Then again, we have read "The Night Chough" (collected in THE CROW:
SHATTERED LIVES AND BROKEN DREAMS), and you probably have not. <g>

We have some ideas of which god or gods are sometimes riding Oreb, but the
short list does not include Pas in any way, shape, or form.  Top of the
list is Scylla.

And yes, this does complicate things throughout TBOTLS!

=mantis=

P.S.  We use these abbreviations so much and so long that lately I've toyed
with the verbal forms, to wit:

TBOTNS: "bones"
TBOTLS: "bottles"
TBOTSS: "boss"

=m=



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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Timeframe of S/N Sun books; Oreb possessed
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 01:34:03 

Kevin Maroney having written:

<Someone here--Robert Borski, I think--pegged the scene towards the end of
_Green_ as taking place during the swimming scene in chapter 1 of _Shadow of
the Torturer_, and I suspect he's right.>

Actually, it was the very astute Nick Gevers, who alluded to the above
almost before anyone else had even read the book. I say: nice job, mate.

Then mantis wrote:

<I don't know that it is "old hat," but then again I don't remember anybody
else besides Robert Borski (and lately myself) following this.  We have been
saying that Oreb is ridden by a god, sometimes, but not all the time; just
as Chenille is (sometimes ridden by Kypris); just as Tick is
(sometimes ridden by Sphigx).

<Then again, we have read "The Night Chough" (collected in THE CROW:
SHATTERED LIVES AND BROKEN DREAMS), and you probably have not.>

There are actually scenes in both Short Sun books that seem to indicate Oreb
has been possessed by Scylla.

The first comes in OBW, very near the end, where Horn is ruefully
cataloguing the many things he has been unable to write about in detail,
including "Nothing about my dream of an angry and vindictive Scylla who
talked like Oreb, the dream that woke me screaming and so terrified Brother
and Sister: "Windows! Windows! Windows!" (p. 380)

[Nontangential associated question: could Brother's real name be Bricco?]

The second comes in IGJ, during Horn's second oneiric transport to Green,
and regards Oreb's newly transformed form:

"'Bird go?'" he croaked doubtfully. (His voice was exactly as it had always
been, though he had come to seem a sort of clumsy, feathered dwarf, and I
had seen undulant arms wrestling with the flagstone as well as his
now-armlike wings.)" (p. 208)

The "undulant arms" are almost certainly Scylla's or I'm a nittimonk's
uncle.

Robert Borski


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Just read Clute's OBW review <SPOILERS>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 05:47:39 

Kevin J. Maroney was kind enough to reply:

>I thought that the common wisdom was that the Whorl left Urth about 1000
>years before _Book of the New Sun_ (during the time of Typhon) and had
>spent 1000 years in transit (though only 358 years passed on-board because
>of time dilation). Someone here--Robert Borski, I think--pegged the scene
>towards the end of _Green_ as taking place during the swimming scene in
>chapter 1 of _Shadow of the Torturer_, and I suspect he's right.

Ah.  Thanks for taking the time to clear up my misconception.  But now I
remember reading the 700 years ago reign of Typhon plus 300plus years for
the voyage <slapping head>.

 I knew that the trip to Urth was during the time of Shadow, but didn't
assume that any of the astral/corridor trips had to be made in *current*
time and was assuming they traveled to the past.

Concerning the speculation on Oreb's true nature:
What do most think the enlargement of Oreb signified?
Simply more proof that he is being ridden by one or more of the gods?
Simply proof that Oreb's own nature is more human (larger than a normal
bird's)?

Concerning the inhumu nature of Silk and/or Horn:
When posters consider this possibility I am assuming they are postulating
that either an inhumu/a is impersonating Silk and/or Horn or that Silk
and/or Horn's essences were transferred into the bodies of inhumu/a.  Is
this a correct assumption?

What I am not assuming is that the traditional stories of victims of
vampyres becoming vampyric through either spiritual or natural (virus) means
is expected to be revealed in TBOSS.  Is this a correct assumption or do
some hold the view that this will become part of the story?

>*Must we assume that, with a name like that, Endymion is a monster?

If a monster, a gentle one <grin>.  A sleeping shepherd boy is a more
accurate description.

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Brother and Sister
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:08:51 

Fernando Gouvea having previously written:

<Clearly the events at the very end of OBW are very important. Who are the
Brother and Sister?>

As I briefly mentioned in a previous post I'd like to suggest that Brother
may be the lost child Bricco from Fava's first story. Given how Wolfe has
previously analogized real world events in his little embedded tales I don't
think this is unreasonable.

Here are the correspondences:

1) Brother does not know his real name. ("Two children are living alone
there: they call each other Brother and Sister, and if they have ever had
other names they do not know them.")

In Fava's tale, "[The boy] didn't know his name or if he did he wouldn't
tell it."

Notice also how both Brother and Bricco begin with B-R.

2) Fava in her tale passes through "a perfectly lovely forest" the morning
before she later happens upon Bricco and his mother further up in her jaunt.

Horn discovers Brother and Sister in "a hovel in a forest."

3) It is hard to tell the ages of Brother and Sister, but from Fava's tale,
where Bricco appears to be about three years old, Brother could now easily
be five. (The tale takes place two years earlier.)

4] Bricco, allegedly, has been kidnapped by the Vanished People. ("They
said...That a highborn woman of the Vanished People had taken a fancy to him
and stolen him away.")

Brother and Sister "see the Vanished People sometimes...Sometimes the
Vanished People even help them."

In addition, we have the following admission from Fava in regards to
maintaining her youthful composure: "It's been so hard staying young for you
while I dined with your grandmother. I kept having to stop on the way to
Duko Rigoglio's palace, or on the way back, to find another child."
Certainly, Hansel and Gretel--er, Brother and Sister--would be appropriately
snackable, especially as the inhumi tend to return to previous sites to
feed, frequently victimizing the poor because they live in dilapidated
housing. From what Incanto later tells Mora, it appears that he believes
that Fava has probably killed Bricco.

As for Sister, perhaps she's even the original human Bean, whose essence
provides vampiric Fava with her identity; according to Inclito "[Fava's]
father is away," implying maybe that her mother is dead, as indeed are
Brother's and Sisters; this or Sister's indigent mother passed away, and
Fava chanced upon the orphaned child in the wilderness and decided to take
advantage of the situation, bringing Brother/Bricco to her for company.

Then again maybe none of the above is valid since as Fava tells us, "All
stories are false, and none are falser than those that are supposed to be
true."

Robert Borski








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From: David Lomax <dlomax@idirect.com>
Subject: (whorl) Inhumi secret and horn/silk/inhumi related?
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:25:31 

All,

What about this?  The inhumi secret could be that, since they take some
of the essence of the person with the blood, the best thing to defeat
them is to actually offer one's blood to them.  That way, since one has
made a generous offer and gift, a giving of the self, perhaps the
inhuma/u would be unable to kill one.  In fact, if one offered enough of
oneself, could not one transfer one's whole essence to the inhumu?
Remember that when Horn was transported, he was told that he was being
transported to a body whose spirit was dying.  Could it be somehow that
Silk discovered the inhumi secret and gave himself entirely over to an
inhumu, so that his entire essence ended up in the inhumu body?  COuld
it then be that Silk's essence was dying in the inhumu body and that
Horn's soul was needed to bolster it?

The thing is, we're all accustomed by now to the fact that often in
Wolfe's books, things are neither entirely one way or entirely the
other.  Would this solution allow the Horn/Silk inhumu to be something
other than a regular inhumu?  Might we call the new thing a New Inhumu,
one in which the essences of human and inhumu are equally mixed, one
which might be palatable to Oreb and be capable of using tools?

I'm not much more satisfied with this explanation of things than I was
with the straight "maybe he's an inhumu" thing.  But it's fun to think
about.

Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

David Lomax


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) The beauty part
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:16:17 


Wombat enquired:

> *Must we assume that, with a name like that, Endymion is a monster? 

Hell, no, though he might be asleep at the wheel!

-alga


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: the beauty part
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:02:42 

alga scripted:
>
>>Wombat enquired:
>>
>>*Must we assume that, with a name like that, Endymion is a monster?

>Hell, no, though he might be asleep at the wheel!

Actually, I'm just a person who throughly enjoys reading Gene Wolfe stories.
I often don't understand them.  I never understand them fully.  And I feel
fortunate to understand more of them by reading the opinions of the
*professional* Wolfe readers here <smile>.



...Ah, Artemis, Artemis wherefore art though Artemis?

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n022
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:18:17 

> From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>

> alga scripted:
> >
> >>Wombat enquired:
> >>
> >>*Must we assume that, with a name like that, Endymion is a monster?
>
> >Hell, no, though he might be asleep at the wheel!
>
> Actually, I'm just a person who throughly enjoys reading Gene Wolfe
stories.
> I often don't understand them.  I never understand them fully.  And I
feel
> fortunate to understand more of them by reading the opinions of the
> *professional* Wolfe readers here <smile>.

Hey, that was just a little Endymion joke that I couldn't resist,
nothing more. And I bet you understand this stuff just as well as anyone
else does.

-alga


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From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Re: time frames
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:25:54 +0100

Two things:

First, apologies, as was pointed out, there is no reference to Horn giving
out a physical description as part of his search for Silk in OBW (as far as
I can see).  Damn those chinese whispers.

Second, the 'IGJ is set a the same point in time as TBOTNS because the
citadel scene is the same night Sev meets Vodalus' poposition.  Aren't the
dream-transfers projections in time as well as space, on occasion?  This is
very tentative, because I can't be bothered to pick it all apart from the
text, but as I reckon it, the interval between Sinew defecting to the
villagers on Green and the Dream projection to Sinew's village is around two
and a half years.  If this is the case (and I'll sure you'll let me know in
no uncertain terms if it isn't) then surely the projection to the village on
Green must be into the future, otherwise how would it be possible for Sinew
to have a three year old son by Bala?

Ian


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ: Sinew Thoughts
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:00:08 

I keep struggling with Sinew and Horn's relationship in my mind and
unfortunately I only come up with questions and not answers.

Reviewing what I think I know:

-Sinew was the victim of an inhuma (Krait's mother?) as a baby.

-Horn thinks Sinew grew to hate him in his later youth.  At first Sinew did
not hate Horn but at some point between his birth and Horn's leaving for his
trip to Pajarocu, he believes Sinew came to hate him.

-Horn gives no evidence that Sinew hates Nettle, but Sinew does not feel
enough love/loyalty to stay on Lizard with her and protect her.  Or did she
make him go to protect Horn as she sent Hoof and Hide out to search for
Horn?

-Sinew was determined to go to Pajarocu and helped his father on the lander.
He stayed with Horn part of the time on Green but at some point
*defected/deserted* Horn.

The question I haven't been able to answer is what is it that Sinew has
against Horn and possibly Nettle that the other children Hoof and Hide don't
seem to have against their parents.

My first thought was that it was anger that they didn't protect him from the
inhuma.  But then why did Horn say that it was when Sinew was older (12?
15?) that he came to hate Horn?  I couldn't find the reference just now but
vaguely remember a line in IGJ saying something like...Hoof and Hide were
always good sons and so was Sinew, at least at first.

What happened to turn Sinew against Horn?  I keep feeling that until I know
that event (One of GW's big secrets) the whole mystery won't be revealed.

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) time frames and paternity
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:30:18 

Ian Smith wrote:

>Second, the 'IGJ is set a the same point in time as TBOTNS because the
>citadel scene is the same night Sev meets Vodalus' poposition.

For me, this is a point built upon a pont.  That is: in TBOTLS it became
clear that the story was not happening 700 years pre-Severian's Reign (that
is, in Year Typhon +323), but instead at roughly the same time as
Severian's Reign (that is, Year Typhon +1000).

Now as to the finer point of "is the day Horn/Silk visits Urth =that= day,"
this is of course arguable on its own merits.  Will the fog rise up while
the guard is away?  Is it the right season?  It seems to be about the right
decade (post-Dorcas era), since the ruins extend as they do and the citadel
is north of them.

>Aren't the
>dream-transfers projections in time as well as space, on occasion?  This is
>very tentative, because I can't be bothered to pick it all apart from the
>text, but as I reckon it, the interval between Sinew defecting to the
>villagers on Green and the Dream projection to Sinew's village is around two
>and a half years.  If this is the case (and I'll sure you'll let me know in
>no uncertain terms if it isn't) then surely the projection to the village on
>Green must be into the future, otherwise how would it be possible for Sinew
>to have a three year old son by Bala?

This is an interesting point, but I had already made some decisions (which
may be revised, naturally) on my own.  With regard to teleportation, I tend
to assume it means "instantaneous" and so the timeframe is "simultaneous":
this was the approach with the teleportation from Yesod to Briah in URTH.

The teleportation used by Horn/Silk may involve time-travel, but it would
be different from that practiced by Severian if Horn/Silk can travel into
the future (Severian can't, not really).  If he =can= travel into the past,
then it becomes problematic as to why the Urth they visited wasn't the same
era that the sleeper had left.

By my count, Sinew has been on Green for at least two years when Horn/Silk
is writing IGJ: Horn has been away from Nettle for three years (IGJ 294);
the original quest, from Blue to Green to Whorl, seems to have taken a year
(I haven't really counted the months), and it was during the stay on Green
that Sinew went his own way; writing OBW took about a year.

Granting a few months leeway here and there (people talking in round years
rather than including fractions), it seems possible that Sinew could have a
three year old and a two year old. Or perhaps the three year old isn't
biologically Sinew's (or maybe neither child is: I don't recall any talk of
how they resemble Sinew/Horn/Hide, and Triv culture being the way it is,
well, paternity may be negated in the biological sense).

=mantis=



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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n022
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:04:57 

alga was kind enough to reply:

>Hey, that was just a little Endymion joke that I couldn't resist,
>nothing more. And I bet you understand this stuff just as well as anyone
>else does.

I took it as that <smile>.  And thanks for the vote of confidence.  However,
I still think I'm better at asking questions while many of you are great at
answering them.  I am impressed.

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Oreb/Pas
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:25:30 

	The Oreb as Scylla theory has much to sustain it, but I'm inclined more to
the Oreb as Kypris and also (thus) as Holy Spirit. The statement that Silk
might move up to an administrative position links with the death,
resurrection, and eventual ascension of Silk (Jesus) to a heavenly throne
(as part of the trinity, with Pas/father and Kypris/spirit). He would get
to take Oreb with him, and pass him on to others (as to Horn). 
	It is also interesting to speculate on the relationship of Pas to the
Outsider. Pas himself has undergone death and resurrection, no? Dismembered
by his family, and then restored to life through Kypris's work. We can
assume that Old Pas was Evil Typhon downloaded, but what about New Pas? New
Pas is clearly to the Father what Silk is to the Son and Kypris to the
Spirit (the archetype of femininity in Christian thought). 
	The Spirit is sent by the Father to Jesus at the latter's baptism, as His
earthly guide during His human life. Oreb fulfills this function, and thus
might be seen as manifesting both New Pas and also Kypris. 
	(Yes, I know Oreb is also in Germanic mythology, as the limp also goes
with Claudius, etc. But given that Silk's life is a copy of the gospel
narrative, I submit that the primary imagery is taken from there.)
	Scylla remains. I suggested Scylla as the novelistic equivalent of the
Harlot in Revelation, riding on the back of the scarlet beast. The Harlot
is the counterfeit of the Spirit-created Church, and thus of the Spirit.
Thus, Scylla imagery associated with Kypris and Oreb would not be out of
line, Scylla as mirror image of Kypris. Does this work? Are there tags in
the novels that associate Scylla-imagery with Kypris-imagery?

Pat. Nut.


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:25:58 

At 06:04 PM 8/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the vote of confidence, several of you. I have a thought
>about Horn's eating habits, which certainly puzzled me too on first
>reading. It's awfully Wolfean. The fact is that the Horn body was
>sturdier, stockier and needed more food than the Silk body. Horn's
>habits and appetites remain as they were, but he must consciously curb
>them in his new body, or he would soon be overweight. But he DOES eat,
>unlike Fava, sweet little bean.
>
>-alga

	It's always interesting to agree with Alga! I'll repeat what I wrote
before, in case it did not get through: Being on a kind of continual fast
is what Silk does. Now that Horn is in Silk's body (as most of us assume),
he's got some of Silk's habits. "Eucharistically" (and Gattaca-like), he's
living off the body and blood of another, the quasi-messianic Silk. It's
affecting him.
	And since Wolfe has put human-inhumi relations at the center of the
trilogy's concerns (by repeatedly calling attention to the mystery), it
makes much more sense to see Horn as a character learning about that
mystery, and learning to implement it. Whatever it may be. He needs to be a
human being for this to work. 
	Of course, Wolfe can fool us all! But I'm very unconvinced of this
hypothesis.
	Now, a bit more on the secret. I suggested being willing to die for
others, and specifically being willing to die for the inhumi, as the
secret. It has now been suggested that voluntarily giving them one's blood
might be the secret. "Eucharistically," that boils down to the same kind of
thing. And it makes good sense to me as a theory, for now anyway.
	Finally, I note that Horn tried to save Fava by giving her his warmth. But
that was not enough. Yet, it is a step along the say. Self-giving as the key. 

Patera Nutria


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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:02 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200008211539.IAA19089@lists1.best.com>
Patera Nutria,
        Have just joined WHORL, and don't know etiquette within this 
august Theatre, but thought I'd tie this to yours on Silk to indicate my 
intuition that you are probably (though, as you say) not absolutely 
certainly right. That fasting is what Silk does escaped my memory, 
certainly, when I was laying down a first _reading_ response to 
_In Green's Jungles_ . 
        But to make it absolutely clear what _I_ was doing: no revelations 
were being hoicked into view, certainly not at this stage: I was laying 
down for readers far more general than WHORL's List some sense of the 
pattern of the book: it was, implicitly, an invocation to read out in the 
open.
        Oreb as Holy Spirit. Very fine. Especially if the bird, in human 
terms, could be defined as a giant paraclete.

Best,
John C
        
        


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:56:45 

At 07:02 PM 8/21/2000 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <200008211539.IAA19089@lists1.best.com>
>Patera Nutria,
>        Have just joined WHORL, and don't know etiquette within this 
>august Theatre, but thought I'd tie this to yours on Silk to indicate my 
>intuition that you are probably (though, as you say) not absolutely 
>certainly right. That fasting is what Silk does escaped my memory, 
>certainly, when I was laying down a first _reading_ response to 
>_In Green's Jungles_ . 
>        But to make it absolutely clear what _I_ was doing: no revelations 
>were being hoicked into view, certainly not at this stage: I was laying 
>down for readers far more general than WHORL's List some sense of the 
>pattern of the book: it was, implicitly, an invocation to read out in the 
>open.
>        Oreb as Holy Spirit. Very fine. Especially if the bird, in human 
>terms, could be defined as a giant paraclete.
>
>Best,
>John C

Thanx. The discussion had gone way beyond your original short review!

Usually, I'm just "Nutria," but since I am ordained, I thought "Patera"
would be fun on occasion (and I thought it might annoy Alga!).

Pat. NUT!


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Typhon's Duality
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:23:28 

At 09:05 PM 8/14/2000 CDT, you wrote:
>Okay - longtime lurker here. Must admit that I haven't read IGJ yet, but 
>there was so much in the last few posts that I just couldn't hold back.
>
>Okay, if Typhon was Neighbor-Spawned or related it _would_ help finally 
>explain the whole Why The Whorl Anyway question, but Typhon was such a 
>seemingly sinister and human critter that I have a hard time buying it. His 
>duality is parasitic and completely antithetical to both the Outsider and (I 
>think - I've only read OBW) the semi-enlightened noble savage-ness of the 
>Neighbors. Then again, the Neighbors ain't exactly what I'd call easy to 
>relate to, so perhaps Typhon was some sort of proto-neighbor, from back when 
>they were a bit more barbaric. On the other hand, I've always liked the way 
>Wolfe makes most evil human created - even we seeded Erebus and such. 
>(Uh...right?)
>All this talk of duality makes me think this - The vast majority of animal 
>life on Blue has eight legs, instead of our four legged variety. It's no 
>surprise then that the dominant humanoid life form on Blue has four legs 
>instead of our two. It's like the place is bursting with duality. And I, 
>uh...really don't know what to do with that. Anybody?

	Welcome!
	Dunno much about duality. Mebbe just a way of having a "different world"
and no more. Problem with Wolfe is that since so MUCH is significant, it is
very easy to overread him!
	As to the Neighbors, you'll find in IGJ that they have a darker past. They
aren't "noble savages," but are now, perhaps, people who have finally
matured beyond enslaving others and over vicious behavior. They are like
the Green Man, perhaps. 
	If Old Pas were a Neighbor, then he came from that earlier, darker period
Neighbor history. Yet, Pas's unnatural birth might simply mean he had been
decanted, like Silk, instead of born. All the same, the Borski hypothesis
has much to commend it: an army of chems and taluses to destroy the inhumi.
	No one picked up on my suggestion that it was Neighbor ships that brought
the first inhumi to the Whorl. Did that meet with general agreement?

>
>Oh, and on the subject of Silk's suicide - I really wouldn't be too 
>surprised. Silk contemplating tossing himself from the airship and the 
>ensuing conversation with Horn seemed to me to be the defining moment of the 
>entire book of the long sun. Never trusted that Hyacinth woman or Silk for 
>being so gaga for her. I mean - nice guy but sometimes not too bright, 
>y'know? Then again, how many Wolfe protagonists really need to chill when it 
>comes to the ladies? Severian uses em like kleenex and Silk is a human 
>doormat. Poor dopes.
>

	Like many of Wolfe's harlots, Hyacinth is the Church (Mary Magdelene of
tradition), a fallen but redeemed woman, but one who has a lot of baggage.
A female Severian. Silk's love for her in spite of this is Silk at his most
Christ-like, not as "not too bright." Unlike Severian, who has his own
problems and baggage, Silk is faithful when Hyacinth is not.
	The scene where Silk is tempted to throw himself off the airship
correlates to the second of Satan's temptations to Jesus, to cast himself
down from the Temple, I believe. Silk manages to overcome the temptation,
and then has a chat with one of his disciples. But it's all very subtle,
since Wolfe is not just retelling the gospel narrative as an allegory. Silk
has also just been tempted, or is about to be tempted (I forget which) to
join Pas, which we can link with the third temptation, to bow down and
worship Satan. But, at this point, is Pas evil or good? I don't think Wolfe
provides the answer, yet, nor do we know whether Silk permitted himself to
be downloaded to sit at Pas's right hand (do we?). Moreover, of course,
these "temptations" don't come at the same place as they do in the gospel
narratives. 
	But you are right, that Silk has been tempted with suicide. Yet, the death
scene in IGJ still does not look like a suicide scene to me, but the
aftermath of a battle.

Nutria


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From: Patri10629@aol.com
Subject: Re: (whorl) Clute's Non-Revelation
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:40:10 EDT


In a message dated 8/21/00 2:15:59 PM, jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:

<<    Have just joined WHORL, and don't know etiquette within this 
august Theatre, <SNIP> Oreb as Holy Spirit. Very fine. Especially if the 
bird, in human 
terms, could be defined as a giant paraclete.
 >>

Dear John,

A warm welcome to The Whorl which will benefit much from your learned 
presence.

However, as acting officer of etiquette I find I must refer you to articles 
32 and 27 of the Whorl Code which jointly prohibit blantant punnage and any 
libel of birds.

But, really, how could you have known?

Patrick O'Leary

AUTHOR OF:
DOOR NUMBER THREE,
THE GIFT,
OTHER VOICES, OTHER DOORS,
THE IMPOSSIBLE BIRD

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/patri10629/">Patrick O'Leary's Home Page</A>
http://members.aol.com/patri10629/

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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Limp biz (cut)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:44:05 


Patera Rat put forth (on another subject altogether):

> (Yes, I know Oreb is also in Germanic mythology, as the limp also goes
> with Claudius, etc.

That limp doesn't go just with Claudius. That limp is important to
classical mythology in general. There's Oedipus--"swollen-foot"--of the
dire prophecy. There's Melampus--"blackfoot," also a prophet. There's
Jason, who arrives wearing just one sandal, as was prophesied. There's
some other odd stuff about sandals, including the sandals of Theseus
(under the stone) and the drag-footed lame Crane Dance and the prophetic
fall that followed. Telephus was wounded in the left leg by Achilles,
and we all know of Achilles and his heel. I cannot remember if Odin was
eventually lame, but I wouldn't be surprised, since Horn is certainly
fixing to be Odin in his accoutrements. There's the Fisher King, wounded
in the thigh.

And there's Sev. And Silk. And Oreb (wing). Eventually (I'll bet; he's
already got a staff), Horn. And for the Crowleyites among us, there's
Pierce walking up Mount Randa with one black shoe and one brown shoe,
first seen as a pilgrim in a shamanistic trance by Beau Brachman. Tres,
tres Jason, IMO.

On another subject, Ian, mantis isn't putting you off--we did get pretty
intense about Suzanne. If you read the earlier stuff and still have
questions, please ask them.

-alga


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From: Sheila Herndon <skherndon@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) question about the secret
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:47:49 


Is Horn probably enacting the secret
to keep safe from inhumi as he narrates?

sh


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) The Neighbourly inhumi
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:52:23 

Drawing on a remark John Clute made a few days ago:
are we sure of the fate of those inhumi who, however
long ago, ingested Neighbor blood and thus became
equal to the Neighbors in puissance? The inhumi who in
Horn's time infest the City on Green clearly have a
relation to them, but their qualities seem to derive
from their human slaves, the "inhumans". Did the
original "Neighborly inhumi" survive in some other
guise? Specifically, are the Neighbors Horn encounters
not perhaps inhumi themselves?

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Two Infernal Cities
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:54:49 

Do any others share my impression that Wolfe wishes us
to equate the City of the Inhumi with Nessus? Are they
congruent in being accursed?

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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Last Call for Symposium
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:19:15 GMT

Anyone who wishes to attend the Gene Wolfe Symposium at 
Birmingham in the UK who has not yet contacted me should do so 
soon. I am currently sending out maps and directions to those who 
have signed up.

Further details from me, Jonathan, at j.m.laidlow@bham.ac.uk

Jonathan
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Modern Languages Office - German & Italian
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston, Birmingham
B15 2TT, England
0121 414 5996
my email not working? tell me on ultan01@yahoo.co.uk

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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:27 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200008212348.QAA22140@lists1.best.com>
More thoughts on Oreb would be of great interest. And more thoughts on 
_why_ so many heroes are lame (see also everything Tim Powers ever 
wrote)--I know there is a body of theory regarding this, and for the 
moment cannot properly nail it down in my head. What kind of boy or dwarf 
is Oreb on Green? Nutria's Christian typology is of course one line; but I 
think Nutria himself assumes this to be only one pattern of meaning, 
though maybe the central.
        Much of this material may have already been exposed here. Sorry if 
I'm disinterring a dead crow.

Best,
John C


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From: Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:36:26 +0200

John Clute wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <200008212348.QAA22140@lists1.best.com>
> More thoughts on Oreb would be of great interest. And more thoughts on
> _why_ so many heroes are lame (see also everything Tim Powers ever
> wrote)--I know there is a body of theory regarding this, and for the
> moment cannot properly nail it down in my head. 


See also Mad Max!

Al

.

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From: "Jonathan Laidlow" <LAIDLOJM@hhs.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Symposium date reminder
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:19:26 GMT

Just a reminder, as I missed out of my earlier message:

Gene Wolfe symposium
SATURDAY 26th AUGUST 2000 
ie this Saturday
Dept of English
University of Birmingham
UK

Speaking will be Peter Wright, Jim Russell, Nigel Price, and 
channelled via medium, Nick Gevers.

All welcome, all invited.

Jonathan
J.M.Laidlow@bham.ac.uk
 --
Jonathan Laidlow
Editor, Ultan's Library
An electronic journal for the study of Gene Wolfe
http://www.english.bham.ac.uk/ultan
email: J.M.Laidlow@bham.ac.uk

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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:16:28 

Nick G:

> Drawing on a remark John Clute made a few days ago:
> are we sure of the fate of those inhumi who, however
> long ago, ingested Neighbor blood and thus became
> equal to the Neighbors in puissance? The inhumi who in
> Horn's time infest the City on Green clearly have a
> relation to them, but their qualities seem to derive
> from their human slaves, the "inhumans". Did the
> original "Neighborly inhumi" survive in some other
> guise? Specifically, are the Neighbors Horn encounters
> not perhaps inhumi themselves?

 I disagree with almost all the specifics that Pat. Rat puts forth with
regard to this series, but I agree with him that it is theologically
conceived. To me, it illustrates the ideas of the second-century heretic
Origen (who was consigned to hell on 15 counts of anathema by his fellow
Church Fathers) who believed that, as angels could sin and fall, demons
could repent and redeem themselves and begin to rise. Instead of a
static and everlasting heaven and hell, there would be a sort of
cyclical motion with, eventually, all things turning to God. (It's a
little more complex, but that's the general idea.) The system that Wolfe
has laid out here is fairly simple: the Neighbors or VPs stand in for
angels, the inhumi for demons or devils, and human beings are shown
being both noble and outrageously wicked and, especially, quarreling
incessantly with one another. The ingestion of blood (and the mysterious
"secret") do change the inhumi nature toward that of their
victims--what's more we see the naked yearning of all three of the young
inhumi to be "real" girls and boys, to aspire upward toward humanity
(this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the middle state beween
devil and angel).

So (sorry to be so longwinded), I think the answers to both your
questions is no, but with qualifications. I don't think there's going to
be any revelation about actual physical change--Harn is not an inhumu in
any way, IMO, nor are the Neighbors. But I do suspect there is going to
be something about partnership. Somebody in the last few days suggested
that the visit to Urth was triggered by Horn's working in tandem with
Rigoglio. I doubt it. I think an unhuma(u) must always be present for
Horn to swing this telekinetic trick (though it is true that the venue
derived from Rigoglio in this case). And the ability was contributed by
a Neighbor. Still, yours is a more intriguing notion of the "secret,"
than any of the Golden Rule platitudes offered so far!

> Do any others share my impression that Wolfe wishes us
> to equate the City of the Inhumi with Nessus? Are they
> congruent in being accursed?

Congruent, yes; he practically slams us over the head with it. Accursed,
hmmm, see above.

-alga


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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:17:22 


Hmmm...  Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not
convinced.  Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly
Wolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite
comfortable in damning a protagonist ("Bed and Breakfast" certainly
doesn't carry much hint of demonic free will).  Also, despite some
obvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons
or the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like
post-Urth Severian, of the "human" order of creation, but
transfigured.  The inhumi are different in that their nature is a
mirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are
in this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine
intelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their
makers, of course.  This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that
except in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see
anything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.

Oreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me
says "the Outsider, silly."  Does "The Night Chough," which I haven't
read, make this more explicit?  I also find it very interesting that
Oreb, who I think we can all agree is very much a Holy Spirit figure,
is also the primary comic relief in Long and Short Sun.  I think this
is fitting with his Spirit of Truth nature as well, and it reminds me
very faintly of the way Muriel Spark and Flannery O'Connor make use of
terrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism.

And by the way, unless I'm recalling incorrectly (which is quite
possible) Origen wasn't precisely "consigned to hell"--a number of his
propsitions (from De Principis mostly, I think) were condemned, but a
number of church figures have defended him as a fundamentally orthodox
fellow carried away with intellectual speculation at times, and
certainly no rebel against Church authority in his day.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:26:35 


--- Alice Turner <pei047@attglobal.net> wrote:

*snip* 

>  I disagree with almost all the specifics that Pat.
> Rat puts forth with
> regard to this series, but I agree with him that it
> is theologically
> conceived. To me, it illustrates the ideas of the
> second-century heretic
> Origen (who was consigned to hell on 15 counts of
> anathema by his fellow
> Church Fathers) who believed that, as angels could
> sin and fall, demons
> could repent and redeem themselves and begin to
> rise. Instead of a
> static and everlasting heaven and hell, there would
> be a sort of
> cyclical motion with, eventually, all things turning
> to God. (It's a
> little more complex, but that's the general idea.)
> The system that Wolfe
> has laid out here is fairly simple: the Neighbors or
> VPs stand in for
> angels, the inhumi for demons or devils, and human
> beings are shown
> being both noble and outrageously wicked and,
> especially, quarreling
> incessantly with one another. The ingestion of blood
> (and the mysterious
> "secret") do change the inhumi nature toward that of
> their
> victims--what's more we see the naked yearning of
> all three of the young
> inhumi to be "real" girls and boys, to aspire upward
> toward humanity
> (this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the
> middle state beween
> devil and angel).
> 
Just a note on Origen.  His heresy charges did not
have to do with the redeemability or not of demons
(that is in line with Orthodox Theology), rather with
the "pre-existence" of souls and a sort of cosmic
recycling that Alga alluded to, among other things. 
Origen was only considered a heretic towards the end
of his life.  His early teachings are still held in
regard among theologians.

As far as Inhumu/demon parallel I found their wanting
to be a 'real' boy or girl (as well as the allusion
near the end of OBW to their being no mor dangerous
than crocodiles) to be more like the wistful passages
in C. S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters".  Lewis' Screwtape
recognizes that humans are superior to the demons and
on occasion wishes he could have some of the human
advantages, but also recognizes and uses human
weakness and tendency to stray to trap and enslave
them.  Not a perfect allegory, I'll admit, but one
that connected a little for me.

I'm enjoying the theological discussions tremendously.
Like Patera Nutria I am ordained, but in the Eastern
Orthodox Christian Church which shares many
theological notions (and rejects some as well) with
the Catholic Church.  However, I would not like this
board to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on
the head of a pin.

Emrys

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Neighborly Inhumi; Oreb as God-Mount
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:34:19 

Nick Gevers having wondered:

>Did the
> original "Neighborly inhumi" survive in some other
> guise? Specifically, are the Neighbors Horn encounters
> not perhaps inhumi themselves?

Couple of thoughts here.

When Horn first meets up with the Neighbors on Shadelow, he writes: "There
were more shadowy figures seated around [the fire]; they wore dark cloaks
(or so it seemed to me at the time) and soft-looking hats with wide brims
and low crowns." (OBW, 268) At the time I wondered could what *seem* to be
dark cloaks actually be wings?

The other passage is even more oblique. Horn, introducing himself, offers
his hand to a Neighbor to shake, writing, "He took it, and this time I felt
his hand and remembered it. It was hard, and seemed to be covered with
short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say." (269) Horn here is
deliberately not telling us something--just as Wolfe is obscuring the
Neighbors' facial  features for some reason--but perhaps either one or the
other relates to your theory.

My biggest problem with the the inhumi-as-Neighbors postulation, however,
involves its sustainability. The vampiric Neighborly inhumi surely would
still need blood, but if all the real Neighbors have left for parts unknown,
how are they able to maintain their Neighborly guise--especially if they're
supping at other non-Neighbor fonts? Recall Fava's difficulties retaining
her youthful composure after dining with Salica.

Alex David Groce then having asked:

<Oreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me
says "the Outsider, silly."  Does "The Night Chough," which I haven't
read, make this more explicit?>

Very much so. Not that I believe you need the story to make the Oreb-Scylla
connection since I believe Wolfe establishes this very well in both Blue
books to date. But here are a couple of quotes from "The Night Chough" to
prove my point.

Oreb, at the story's beginning, sees several images reflected back to him
from the waters of a pool; the first is his own, the second is the face of a
murdered young woman, Lily. And then:

"Already a third countenance was forming, a young woman's snarling face
framed by floating tendrils of dark hair. This new young woman had a
profusion of arms, some with two elbows and some with three--some, even,
that required no elbows at all, arms without hands, as sinuous as serpents,
mouthing angry phrases without sound." (THE CROW: SHATTERED LIVES & BROKEN
DREAMS, 64.)

Later, when Oreb encounters Starling, who's searching for Lily's body, he
refers to seeing both faces as a vision, but seems to believe that Starling
is actually looking for Scylla.

"Girl here," it declared. "Find girl." Again, it recalled its vision. "Big
wet. Have arms." (66)

As if for emphasis, Oreb repeats the "Have arms" line two more times.

Starling soon encounters a character named Moonrat, who agrees to lead him
to Lily's body. On their way back to the pond, Moonrat indicates he wants to
ask Starling a question.

"I--I've been following you. Not ever since I gave you my gun, I went away
then. I didn't want him to see me. But I started back when I heard the shot.

"I understand."

"You were gone by then, and your bird was pecking at Bushdog's...at his
face. So I was sure you were going to Serval's, so I ran down the steet to
catch up to you. Maybe you didn't hear me, because of the storm."

"I didn't," the young man said.

"Then your bird flew past and lit on your shoulder, and a girl was with you,
walking beside you. The--your bird had brought her. That was what it seemed
like."

"Lily's ghost?" The young man was silent, pensive.

"I don't think so." Moonrat's voice quavered. "I've seen Lily, you know?
Around town sometimes with you. It didn't look like her. Not--not at all
like Lily."

"I wish I'd seen her." The young man might not have heard him.

"You had to. She was right besides you. In the, you know, the lightning
flashes. I could see her better than I can see you right now. I wanted to
ask who she was."

"Scylla." That was the bird. And not the bird. (p. 74)

There are a couple of other passages I could cite you, but if the above
doesn't convince you neither will they. And so to recapitulate: Oreb is
being ridden by Scylla--aka "Big wet" and quite probably "The Mother"--who's
attempting to contact Horn, but surreptitiously so, in all likelihood
fearing for her life, especially since Pas has already killed the ringleader
of their earlier attempted coup. ("Echidna tried to kill Pas, so was killed
by him for that.") Quite possibly "The Night Chough" takes place during
Oreb's year-long absence from Horn and Gaon; it's hard to tell whether the
tale takes place on Blue or the Whorl, but my sense of it is that Oreb is
with Scylla in one place or the other, and that relationship carries over
into the Short Sun series.

Robert Borski









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From: "Roberson, John" <RobersonJ@bek.com>
Subject: (whorl) Horn as Inhumi and Silk as suicide?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:26:36 

Greetings!  Hope this reaches everyone. 

1. The description of Silk circulated by Horn was from the postscript to
TBOLS copies circulated by Horn and Nettle after they landed on Blue, not by
the Rajan of Gaon Horn/Silk amalgam who should know, if nothing else, where
Silk's body is.

2. Unless Horn as TBOLS narrator was so hero-worshipful that he's another
unreliable Wolfean narrator, I don't think suicide out of despondency is an
option for someone of the character of Silk, given that he rejected it on
the airship.  But using himself as a funeral sacrifice for Hy would be in
character.  (Then again, maybe Wolfe is saying that Silk was too idealistic
and fooled-by-young-love/lust to be the Beautiful Person and only after
merging with the more realistic, selfish, imperfect Horn could he/them
become what Horn believed him to be initially through the rose-tinted
glasses of his youth.  Either that, or I'm full of it.)

3. Just noticed that (forgot the page no) Jahlee, when posing as Incanto's
housekeeper, is mentioned as snuffling around and coughing like Incanto,
after he's slept in her house for some time. I wonder if she's been having a
midnight snack of Incanto on rye?  This would explain Incanto's lack of
appetite if the identity-fluid transfer from victim to inhumu works both
ways, as some have supposed.  This would be more palatable to me than
Incanto actually being an inhumu...

4. With regard to the Horn-Babbie identity confusion at the end of OBW, I
initially thought this was just a psychic bonding caused by Horn's
Neighbor-granted psychic abilities asserting themselves (like suddenly being
a perfect shot and picking his way through dense foliage, etc), perhaps
caused by the fact that I believe Mucor frequently possessed Babbie on their
journey and he was linking with her/it.  She does tend to pop up whenever he
exercizes his astral projection ability.  Maybe not, though...

What do you wiser heads think?

Still in the schola, nowhere close to Patera-hood,

Ram    



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Rigoglio and Kim Il Sung
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:37:46 

Another casual observation: has anyone else perceived
a close resemblance between the Soldo/Blanko war and
the Korean War, in which Wolfe of course participated?
Authoritarian North versus democratic (?) South;
Typhon imitator Rigoglio and Stalin imitator Kim Il
Sung; protagonist is an outsider who intervenes in
said war, like a GI...

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:07 

At 11:17 AM 8/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Hmmm...  Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not
>convinced.  Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly
>Wolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite
>comfortable in damning a protagonist ("Bed and Breakfast" certainly
>doesn't carry much hint of demonic free will).  Also, despite some
>obvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons
>or the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like
>post-Urth Severian, of the "human" order of creation, but
>transfigured.  The inhumi are different in that their nature is a
>mirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are
>in this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine
>intelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their
>makers, of course.  This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that
>except in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see
>anything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.

	FWIW, I find the inhumi rather like Cordwainer Smith's underpeople in some
ways. I don't think they represent the demonic realm in the symbolic
substructure of the series; rather, they mirror the evil in mankind. A much
closer, and very obvious, mirror of angels and demons are the gods of
mainframe: promixate agents of the all-controlling Pantocrator. The essence
of the demonic, in Christian thought, is to tempt and to teach falsely, and
I don't see the inhumi in that role at all. A secondary aspect of the
demonic is to oppress, but in Christianity that is definitely secondary
(while in Manichaean thinking it is primary, since power is the basic
category there); and the inhumi don't get to do much oppressing either; or
rather, they have learned oppression from their human and neighbor
associates. The only thing specifically demonic about them is that they are
parasites. 
	Additionally, I interviewed GW rather closely about his theological
beliefs, because I wanted to understand the Memoirs of Severian better. He
claims to be fully orthodox as a Roman Catholic, and learned from St.
Thomas and of course Chesterton. Of course, he can USE the more heretical
aspects of Origen's thought in a novel if he chooses, but I don't see real
evidence for this. He denied employing gnostic thought as the substructure
of the Severian books, which I had at first thought he was doing -- and of
course, we're in the same fictional universe here. So, I'd be surprised if
Slimina were right on this.
	BTW, thanks from me too, Alga, for the quick list of all the limping
heroes! Fascinating how frequently the motif is encountered, even though it
means different things in various mythic contexts. 
>
>Oreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me
>says "the Outsider, silly."  Does "The Night Chough," which I haven't
>read, make this more explicit?  I also find it very interesting that
>Oreb, who I think we can all agree is very much a Holy Spirit figure,
>is also the primary comic relief in Long and Short Sun.  I think this
>is fitting with his Spirit of Truth nature as well, and it reminds me
>very faintly of the way Muriel Spark and Flannery O'Connor make use of
>terrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism.

	I tried to speculate on how Oreb could be "ridden" by both Scylla and
Outsider (and, I suggested, be also related to Kypris). Actually, the
solution is quite simple. The Outsider IS God, and is outside the creation.
Thus, He can enter and either override or work with anything inside the
creation at any time. The gods of mainframe simply take people over like
robots, and I guess Oreb also (on occasion, anyway). The gods are part of a
continuum of being, and are more powerful then men. The Outsider is outside
the whole continuum, and is more subtle. Recall The Ruler in "Westwind,"
who says, "I prefer not to interfere directly," or words to that effect.
The Outsider can use Scylla any way He wishes (whether she like is, or is
aware of it, or not), and thus is behind Scylla's riding of Oreb when she
does so.
	I don't know if the Spirit as Comic Relief is in Chesterton, but of
course, Christianity as THE Comic Relief is pure Chesterton, and thus a
huge part of Wolfe's thinking. Oddly, Wolfe's books end in ways that can
suggest tragedy, the pagan opposite of the Divine comedy. But they always
point beyond the end of the story to a final happy ending (e.g., the green
man).
	FWIW.

Patera Nutria


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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:14:12 

At 08:26 AM 8/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:

>I'm enjoying the theological discussions tremendously.
>Like Patera Nutria I am ordained, but in the Eastern
>Orthodox Christian Church which shares many
>theological notions (and rejects some as well) with
>the Catholic Church.  However, I would not like this
>board to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on
>the head of a pin.
>
>Emrys

	There's so much in Wolfe that it would be a real shame to discuss only the
theological aspects. I've tried to call attention to those aspects here,
just as a matter of contributing my expertise. I'm wary of overreading
Wolfe along these lines, but I probably fall into that trap anyway -- as do
all of us in various ways!

Patera Nutria (Presbyterian)


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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:19 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200008230256.TAA15037@lists1.best.com>
Nutria:
        To speak very broadly indeed, which I think is sometimes necessary 
with Wolfe, it does strike me that the tonus (as distinguished from the 
intellectual doctrinal structuring) of Wolfe's major works is anything but 
Christian. Except maybe in certain parts of the book we are now 
considering, the melacholia is profound: _In Blue's Waters_ , and many of 
the later stories, are acts of heroism (it seems) against a very deep 
sadness, which Christians (and others) might put a term to. I myself would 
tend to cod gnosticism here: it feels like the occlusion or bondage of the 
blinding world, to me. 
        We may see _Return to the Whorl_ continue the transformations of 
tonus audible (I think) in the current book; but I wouldn't exactly bet on 
a triumph of THE comedy.
        But this is a topic without closure. And premature at this point, 
though it is the sort of consideration all the decipherments must be a 
road to.
        (I've just now noticed a later message from you which makes it 
very clear you have some broadly similar thoughts about the subordination 
of all schemas (even those we can legitimately pin on Wolfe himself) to 
the summae which is the felt work of art, sort of thing.)

Best,
John C 


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From: mark millman <millman@us.ncipher.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Limp biz (cut)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:07:18 

At 07:44 PM 21-08-00 -0400, alga wrote:

> Patera Rat put forth (on another subject altogether):
>
>> (Yes, I know Oreb is also in Germanic mythology, 
>> as the limp also goes with Claudius, etc.
>
> That limp doesn't go just with Claudius. That limp is 
> important to classical mythology in general. There's 
> Oedipus--"swollen-foot"--of the dire prophecy. There's 
> Melampus--"blackfoot," also a prophet. There's Jason, 
> who arrives wearing just one sandal, as was prophesied. 
> There's some other odd stuff about sandals, including the 
> sandals of Theseus (under the stone) and the drag-footed 
> lame Crane Dance and the prophetic fall that followed. 
> Telephus was wounded in the left leg by Achilles, and we 
> all know of Achilles and his heel. I cannot remember if 
> Odin was eventually lame, but I wouldn't be surprised, 
> since Horn is certainly fixing to be Odin in his accoutre-
> ments. There's the Fisher King, wounded in the thigh.

Odysseus, too, has a thigh wound, though it's old and healed  
and apparently doesn't cause him to limp.  It does, however,
serve to identify him to members of his household upon his
return.

I've been unable to find any reference to Odin's becoming 
lame or receiving a wound in his leg or foot.  I did, however, 
come across one interesting foot fact about Odin.  During 
Ragnarok, Odin is swallowed by Fenrir and dies.  His son 
Vidar avenges him by kicking Fenrir in the mouth with a giant 
shoe until the wolf's jaws are torn asunder--just one giant shoe, 
not one of a pair.  I suppose that could cause a limp.

Nacre

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:35:08 

Ian Smith having previously written:

< "I found him in the forest, sitting in the dark under the trees. I could
not see him, it was too dark to see anything. But I knelt beside him, and
lay my head upon his knee, and he comforted me." (OBW p.378)>

<At first I thought this was another Neighbor encounter, but in IGJ Horn
says he hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body. It could
also be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose. Any ideas?>

To which Nick Gevers responded:

<When I read OBW, I was under the impression that the Horn / Babbie
transference was a
trick the Neighbors pulled to allow Horn to escape the inhumi; the latter
have no interest in a hus, and would become confused. Of course, if the
Neighbors are responsible, they are acting remotely, so Horn isn't really
"encountering" them.>

My reading of the scene in question is somewhat different than everyone
else's, I suspect, because I've always seen Babbie as more than a simple
hus.

First off, he's the gift of Circean Mucor, which plays to the Homeric angle
of transformed animals.
("Babbie's more like people," "Babbie's a person," etc., etc.)

Secondly, as Mucor says her goodbye to Horn from the cliff, there is this
passage:

"At the top of the cliff, I saw a small dark figure that seemed almost a
cluster of boys, or two men upon their hands and knees. It vanished, then
reappeared as it made a flying leap from the top of the cliff. For the
moment I thought its target was the sloop, and that it would strike it and
die. It sent up a waterspout five cubits from the tip of the bowsprit,
however, and vanished as if it had sunk like a stone." (OBW, 105)

On the very next page, however, Horn writes:

"I see that when I described my departure from Mucor's Rock, I never
actually mentioned that Babbie came on board, his black snout and little red
eyes breaking water just aft of the rudder, and his stubby forepaws
clutching the gunwale beside me that reminded me unpleasantly of the
leatherskin."

Almost certainly the "cluster of boys, or two men on their hands and knees"
is a Neighbor. Given that "it" jumps into the water, and Babbie suddenly
appears, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude they're one and the
same.

Thirdly, when Horn is lying in the pit, he records the following
observation:

"I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun.
It vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw
Babbie's familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit." (195)

I maintain that *mask* is the key word here. It's also possible that the
"sharp faces" Horn sees while in the pit (note the plural) are a Neighbor's
(the glittering eyes appear to belong to Krait).
But almost certainly the following passage refers to a Neighbor, although it
is recollected later:

"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seems to me that a man
with a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not
move or even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He
touched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished." (203)

The "long nose" attribute, I suspect, may be another clue linking Babbie
with the Neighbor, and for what it's worth a very similar scene to the "He
touched my forehead with something he held" occurrs in GREEN, when Horn is
annointed with sweet-smelling oil by a Neighbor.

Fourthly, and very close to the episode under discussion, Seawrack notes the
following: "When [Babbie] goes into the trees, it will be a real person
going in there. But he won't be a real person for long." (340)

Finally, we reach the scene in question. Horn writes:

"After a time that seemed long to me, three or four hours I would guess,
when I was practically alseep too, I heard myself calling Babbie.

"Certain that I had been dreaming nad had spoken aloud in a dream that I
could no longer remember, I rubbed my eyes and rolled onto my hands and
knees."

Shortly thereafter:

"Someone on shore called again for Babbie, and I understood that he meant
me...He who called me seemed quite near, and he called me with more urgency
than Seawrack ever has."

But how does Horn reach the conclusion that whoever's calling Babbie is
actually calling for him? This seems more an element of dream logic than
anything else, and if I had to bet the farm on anything, I'd wager it's a
misapprehension; that either "Babbie" himself is calling out his name
("Babbie can talk") in order to lure Horn into the woods (perhaps to say
goodbye), or that another Neighbor is calling Babbie. What seems to justify
to most of you the interpretation that Horn has switched personalities with
Babbie is the line about how Horn "knelt beside him and laid my head upon
his knee, and he comforted me." But if Babbie really is a Neighbor, and has
resumed his native form, couldn't this be a Neighbor's knee, given that we
know the Vanished People are all extremely tall?

I'd also like to note what appears to be Horn's last word on the subject,
which takes place during his stay with Brother and Sister. Writes he: "I
asked them about the Vanished Gods. They said there was one in the forest,
so I told them about him." Apparently at least he believes he's seen a
Vanished God--perhaps indicative of some intermediate shape Babbie has
taken, but one not recognizable to Horn as either Neighbor or Babbie.

On a related note I also continue to hold out that Babbie may reappear as
Pig in the final Short Sun book. Babbie, as Mucor tells Incanto, has
returned to her Rock, but given the enormous difficulty this must have
encompassed, crossing leagues of ocean and land, I find it rather difficult
to believe that a mere hus--even an extremely intelligent and resourceful
one--could manage the journey. In other words, if the Neighbors can morph
themselves along theric lines, why not human? Hence perhaps Babbie's return
is actually from the Whorl.

I also find the following line from Blue intriguing: "Because I could not
leave Pig blind, these people were able to bring me here, and so ended any
chance of success I might have had." In adventures still to come, will Horn
donate an eye to Pig and spend the rest of his life half-blind?

Robert Borski























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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:56:10 

At 02:35 PM 8/23/00 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:
>Thirdly, when Horn is lying in the pit, he records the following
>observation:
>
>"I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun.
>It vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw
>Babbie's familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit." (195)
>
>I maintain that *mask* is the key word here. 

You may be over-reading. Merriam-Webster gives this for "mask": 

4 a : the head or face of an animal (as a fox or dog) b : an area (as the
one around the eyes) of an animal's face that is distinguished by usually
darker coloring 

While it would certainly be like Wolfe to deliberately code meaning into
that word, it's also a perfect example of Wolfe using precisely the right
word where most authors would use an approximation. 

-- 
   Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games 
   kmaroney@ungames.com | (212) 777-1190

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:44:48 

At 2:35 PM -0500 8/23/00, Robert Borski wrote:
>I also find the following line from Blue intriguing: "Because I could not
>leave Pig blind, these people were able to bring me here, and so ended any
>chance of success I might have had." In adventures still to come, will Horn
>donate an eye to Pig and spend the rest of his life half-blind?

Wow! I agree with you on this one Robert.

Way back on Tue, 19 Oct 1999, so long ago that I still felt clever 
for figuring out that Olivine was Hammerstone and Marble's daughter, 
I wrote this.

>Horn gave his eye to Pig. And Marble's daughter gave up one of her eyes for
>her mother.
>

[Long passage citing textual evidence that Olivine is Hammerstone and 
Marble's daughter, and other stuff, snipped. Of course I eventually 
realized that the reason no one else had mentioned this idea before 
me was that everyone else had figured it out already and thought is 
was too obvious to mention.]

-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:23:25 

At 2:35 PM -0500 8/23/00, Robert Borski wrote:
>
>Secondly, as Mucor says her goodbye to Horn from the cliff, there is this
>passage:
>
>"At the top of the cliff, I saw a small dark figure that seemed almost a
>cluster of boys, or two men upon their hands and knees. It vanished, then
>reappeared as it made a flying leap from the top of the cliff. For the
>moment I thought its target was the sloop, and that it would strike it and
>die. It sent up a waterspout five cubits from the tip of the bowsprit,
>however, and vanished as if it had sunk like a stone." (OBW, 105)
>

[...]

>Almost certainly the "cluster of boys, or two men on their hands and knees"
>is a Neighbor. Given that "it" jumps into the water, and Babbie suddenly
>appears, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude they're one and the
>same.

Almost certainly, it will surprise no long-time readers of this 
discussion list, least of all you Robert, that I disagree strongly 
with this interpretation. It is just so *unnecessary*!

It is *completely* certain to me that an eight-legged creature 
one-third(?) the height of a man will look more like a cluster of 
(shorter than a man) boys or two men on their hands and knees (short 
- because doubled over - and with eight leg-like - because of 
position - limbs) than a Neighbor, who is as tall as or taller than a 
man and has only four leg-like limbs (and, of course, four arm-like 
ones).

Perhaps the point Wolfe is trying to make here is that, even after 
being on Blue so many years, Horn (and, presumably, most over people 
born on the Whorl) still are not used to the fact that almost all the 
native wildlife has at least twice as many limbs as is "natural." (I 
am sticking with my belief that the leatherskin may have 12 legs, 
which I stated in a message months ago.)


-- 
William Ansley

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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n025
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:45:36 

From Alex
:
> Hmmm...  Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not
> convinced.  Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly
> Wolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite
> comfortable in damning a protagonist ("Bed and Breakfast" certainly
> doesn't carry much hint of demonic free will).  Also, despite some
> obvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons
> or the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like
> post-Urth Severian, of the "human" order of creation, but
> transfigured.  The inhumi are different in that their nature is a
> mirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are
> in this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine
> intelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their
> makers, of course.  This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that
> except in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see
> anything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.

OK, I didn't say that it was a template, only that it reminded me of
Origen's system. Regard: a dynamic system is inherently more interesting
than a static one, and even the Rat admited that Wolfe as a novelist
might be attracted to Origen's ideas while rejecting them as a believer.
A plain view of Wolfe's system here seems to me to follow my simplified
Origenic patern. But I'm not going to fight for it.

> And by the way, unless I'm recalling incorrectly (which is quite
> possible) Origen wasn't precisely "consigned to hell"--a number of his
> propsitions (from De Principis mostly, I think) were condemned, but a
> number of church figures have defended him as a fundamentally orthodox
> fellow carried away with intellectual speculation at times, and
> certainly no rebel against Church authority in his day.

Au contraire, mon frere, they consigned him to eternal flames at the
Synod of Constantiople in 543 and then, just to make sure he didn't
escape from his fate, again in 553, 680, 787 and 869. That's a crispy
kind of guy.

From Tim Bolas:

> Just a note on Origen.  His heresy charges did not
> have to do with the redeemability or not of demons
> (that is in line with Orthodox Theology), rather with
> the "pre-existence" of souls and a sort of cosmic
> recycling that Alga alluded to, among other things.
> Origen was only considered a heretic towards the end
> of his life.  His early teachings are still held in
> regard among theologians.

I never said it did, only that it was a fact. Of course they are. They
make a lot of sense theologically.

-akga



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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:54:09 

Back on Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Alex David Groce 
<Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> wrote:

[...]

>vizcacha brings up the Moses analogy also, which suggests that Silk himself
>may not ever set foot on Blue.  Moses, of course, died before he reached the
>Promised Land, but came back later at the transfiguration in the Gospels.  Is
>Horn the means by which Silk is setting foot on Blue only after death?

I found the passage quoted above while I was looking through the 
archive for one of my own messages and was a bit startled. Is Alex a 
good guesser or what?

-- 
William Ansley

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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:03:07 +0100

At 23:17 2000-08-09 -0700, Adam Stephanides wrote:
>I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
>sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
>knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)
>
>Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?

Is the baletiger around yet?

SBear.


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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Brother and Sister
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:03:00 +0100

At 23:08 2000-08-18 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:
...
>In addition, we have the following admission from Fava in regards to
>maintaining her youthful composure: "It's been so hard staying young for you
>while I dined with your grandmother. I kept having to stop on the way to
>Duko Rigoglio's palace, or on the way back, to find another child."
>Certainly, Hansel and Gretel--er, Brother and Sister--would be appropriately
>snackable, especially as the inhumi tend to return to previous sites to
>feed, frequently victimizing the poor because they live in dilapidated
>housing.

I see what you mean about Bricco, but Brother and Sister live on
an entirely different continent to Fava. She is finding children
(different ones each time, by the sound of it) between Incanto's
farm and Soldo.

SBear (which almost sounds Italian, doesn't it? I hope it isn't rude ...)


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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) First impressions
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:56:02 +0100

Wow!

What a good book! There are so many arresting moments, both hinted-at
revelations and surprises pulled out of nowhere. Even "little" things like
Mora's personal problems are striking. I don't know why - the unexpectedness,
or the fact that Horn takes time to help her while there is so much else
going on, or just the fact that it's done so well. This is the subject matter
of mainstream literature, yet it's hard to imagine any mainstream novel making
it so readable or so interesting. And how many other great works of literature
have lines about being a girl trapped in the body of a blood-drinking reptile?
... actually, that whole aspect of it is very moving. It reminds me, now that
I come to think of it, of what must be about the most spine-chilling thing
I've ever read - the alzabo in TBOTNS. This is different, though, in being
much more hopeful. The inhumi are still living spirits, rather than horrific
ghostly echoes, and the tone of the book suggests that they might be redeemed.
I can't imagine how, though - aren't they always going to be blood-drinking
reptiles?


Bitten by the evidence:

Mr Clute's idea of Horn as inhumu doesn't seem right to me - as well as
the evidence adduced against it so far, the scene where Horn makes a big
thing of telling Hide about inhumi not eating happens immediately after
Horn has actually *shown Hide his own teeth*!


In hindsight:

Horn's description of Silk as the *phantom* who has eluded him through three
whorls now seems particularly apt :-)


Babbie:

I'm glad Babbie got home all right, and that Mucor is sending him to
Horn again, but how did he do it? I know he can row (a somewhat startling
idea itself), but sailing back across the ocean is another matter. Maybe
he and Seawrack could do it between them, but why would she leave Pajarocu?
We'll probably get a throwaway line about him signing on with Wijzer...


Cruelty to Bears:

It's particularly noticeable how many parts of the story Horn starts
to tell us about but doesn't finish.  Do we *ever* see him come back
from one of his visits to Green, for instance? Or from Urth?
At one point Horn mentions that he has written almost nothing about
the rest of the adventures on the spirit trip to Green, which is what
he was supposed to have been writing about - aaagh! That Wolfe, teasing
the poor reader so!

The Secret:

The speculations here about the secret of the inhumi being to do with
willing sacrifice are very interesting, but don't address Horn's assertion
that it could be used to reduce the inhumi to mindless animals, not better
but not worse than crocodiles. And how does that fit in with the general
theme that we ought to be *nice* to them? 

I did feel very clever to have guessed that Sinew was bitten by Krait's
mother. I need all the ego boost I can get, too, after reading the abstracts
for the symposium on Saturday. Anyone else from here going to be there?

Spectacled Bear.



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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:26 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200008240354.UAA02029@lists1.best.com>
Still trying to get a chronological sort on what's been said and where in 
this list.
        Noticed the reference to Moses. How old is this list? My own 
reference to Silk as Moses was written in 1996, for a _NYRSF_ review of 
_Exodus from the Long Sun_ . I didn't credit anyone, or any pattern of 
thought, for the image--and would have, had I known I was stirring a broth 
that had already been cooked.
        Not that being the first to think something is the same as being 
the first to think it well--but one of the reasons I joined WHORL was to 
try to keep from reinventing the wheel. 

Best,
John C


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Odin and Mithra
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:19:07 

Nacre said:

> I've been unable to find any reference to Odin's becoming
> lame or receiving a wound in his leg or foot.  I did, however,
> come across one interesting foot fact about Odin.  During
> Ragnarok, Odin is swallowed by Fenrir and dies.  His son
> Vidar avenges him by kicking Fenrir in the mouth with a giant
> shoe until the wolf's jaws are torn asunder--just one giant shoe,
> not one of a pair.  I suppose that could cause a limp.

I was looking through H. R. Ellis Davidson's -Gods and Myths of Northern
Europe- (for reasons entirely unrelated to this list) and was struck by
this pair of sentences relating to Odin.

"He was the ancient one-eyed god, crafty and skilled in magic lore, a
great shape-changer, and an expert in the consultation of the dead. He
was the rider on the eight-legged steed, the wanderer up and down the
earth, the god knowing the secrets of travel between the worlds."

The steed is, on Blue, an elephant. Odin had a pair of ravens and a pair
of wolves. Horn has only one of each, but that's fair enough.

The companions of Mithra, OTOH, are a raven, a dog, a snake and a
scorpion. We lack only the scorpion, so far (but we have a series of
snakes). Moreover, Mithra is usually portrayed in ritual slaughter of a
bull. That's what Silk does for a living too. I bring these fellas up to
remind our pateras that Wolfe is nothing if not inclusive.

And speaking of Oreb (weren't we?) I agree with Falcon on the Scylla (or
Kypris) question: it is not logical and it would make Oreb considerably
less novelistically interesting than he is.

-alga


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From: "Roberson, John" <RobersonJ@bek.com>
Subject: (whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:10:21 



> ----------
> From:
> whorl-errors@lists.best.com[SMTP:whorl-errors@lists.best.com]
> Reply To: 	whorl@lists.best.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 24, 2000 9:22 AM
> To: 	whorl@lists.best.com
> Subject: 	Digest whorl.v011.n027
> 
> 
	Spectacled Bear wrote:

> The Secret:
> 
> The speculations here about the secret of the inhumi being to do with
> willing sacrifice are very interesting, but don't address Horn's assertion
> that it could be used to reduce the inhumi to mindless animals, not better
> but not worse than crocodiles. And how does that fit in with the general
> theme that we ought to be *nice* to them? 
> 
	My thoughts on this go as follows: 

	If humans offer themselves willingly to the inhumu, who then develop
something of their soul/spirit of not harming others and being
self-sacrificing, then those inhumu will quit feeding on other humans.
Feeding from only non-sentient animals, they would lose their sentience and
revert to blood-sucking croc vermin.  While this would get rid of the inhumu
problem, it would be somewhat contrary to Incanto's ethical stance, since he
believes the inhumu spirits to be developing "souls" and to do something
that would revert them back to beasts would be "killing" their human-like
spirits.

	-Ram 


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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:46:13 

Sbearo having written:

<I see what you mean about Bricco, but Brother and Sister live on an
entirely different continent to Fava. She is finding children (different
ones each time, by the sound of it) between Incanto's
farm and Soldo.>

I don't believe this is right. GREEN begins almost immediately (or very
shortly) after the Brother and Sister encounter, and on the first page of
his new narration Horn writes about the river that flows through Blanko
thusly: "I do not think this is the same river we had in the south. This one
flows fast but silently." He then talks (again) about the eight-legged
crocodiles that infest the Nadi.

Not sure how rivers run in the UK, but do you have any intercontinental
ones? (Might make an interesting remake of HEART OF DARKNESS, pitched
Hollywood style. "Man sets sail on the Thames, winds up in the deepest
Africa.")

Robert Borski



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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:19:08 +0100

At 11:46 2000-08-24 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:
>Sbearo having written:
>
><I see what you mean about Bricco, but Brother and Sister live on an
>entirely different continent to Fava. She is finding children (different
>ones each time, by the sound of it) between Incanto's
>farm and Soldo.>
>
>I don't believe this is right. GREEN begins almost immediately (or very
>shortly) after the Brother and Sister encounter, and on the first page of
>his new narration Horn writes about the river that flows through Blanko
>thusly: "I do not think this is the same river we had in the south. This one
>flows fast but silently." He then talks (again) about the eight-legged
>crocodiles that infest the Nadi.

Ah, you're right. I had mentally transferred them to the river
that runs through Pajarocu, probably because their life resembles
that of the people of Shadelow more than it does the comparatively
civilised (parts of) Main. Thanks for setting me straight. It was
just for occasions like this that I chose my nickname!

"Sbearo" ... a nice coining, thank you :-)

And Google doesn't have any matches for it at all, whereas it has
dozens of spurious Sun Bears, Sloth Bears (okay, not that spurious
in this case), Sitting Bears, Standing Bears, and even a site
selling llamas.

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:26:31 

John Clute wrote:

>Still trying to get a chronological sort on what's been said and where in 
>this list.
>        Noticed the reference to Moses. How old is this list? My own 
>reference to Silk as Moses was written in 1996, for a _NYRSF_ review of 
>_Exodus from the Long Sun_ . I didn't credit anyone, or any pattern of 
>thought, for the image--and would have, had I known I was stirring a broth 
>that had already been cooked.
>        Not that being the first to think something is the same as being 
>the first to think it well--but one of the reasons I joined WHORL was to 
>try to keep from reinventing the wheel. 

>Best,
>John C

You definitely had the idea before I did--I didn't read Long Sun until
well after Exodus had been published (had to dodge spoilers on this
list for a while).  While I agree with Nutria that there are a lot of
"imitation of Christ" elements to Silk's story, ignoring the Moses
element in a series that ends with a book called Exodus is unwise.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:33:34 

At 06:13 PM 8/24/00 -0400, alga wrote:
>This may well be true in "The Night Chough," which only you and mantis
>seem to have read. 

I read it, but I didn't come away with the same understanding that Robert
and mantis did. I need to re-read it in light of their discussion. 

>It's the hus, the whole hus, nothing but the hus.

Oh, you wicked woman. 

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:13:14 


Said William:

> Of course I eventually
> realized that the reason no one else had mentioned this idea before
> me was that everyone else had figured it out already and thought is
> was too obvious to mention.

Not so; we'd all been counting eyes, but you got there first.

Mr. Borski:

> Note the very last line from "The Night Chough" that I quote. In the
> original text the word "Scylla" is italicized. But it's what follows
that's
> important. "That was the bird. And not the bird." In other words, Oreb
is
> saying "Scylla," but it's actually Scylla (and not the bird) that's
> providing the information. My argument: that if you're a god and
you're
> using a bird for your mouthpiece, you're riding it.

This may well be true in "The Night Chough," which only you and mantis
seem to have read. But there's not a tweak of evidence for it in the
five books we have all read. Scylla has apparently been there (for the
story), done that and skedaddled.

> Mr. Ansley then writing:
>
> <It is *completely* certain to me that an eight-legged creature
one-third(?)
> the height of a man will look more like a cluster of (shorter than a
man)
> boys or two men on their hands and knees (short
> - because doubled over - and with eight leg-like - because of
position -
> limbs) than a Neighbor, who is as tall as or taller than a man and has
only
> four leg-like limbs (and, of course, four arm-like
> ones).>
>
> All right, just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right here.
The
> 8-legged thingie is merely some indigenous, but anonymous, member of
Blue's
> faunal kingdom. What possesses it to jump from the cliff to the sea?
If
> directed by Mucor, what has she done so? In other words what are we
make of
> this leap in a broader context? Also: when last seen, the eight-legged
> thingie has plunged into the water and disappeared very near to Horn's
boat.
> Just coincidentally, when Babbie first appears upon the scene some few
> hundred words later, it's also in the water very near to the boat. I
just
> think the simplest most elegant solution is to assume both are one and
the
> same. If I'm wrong, I still need to understand the 8-legged beastie's
> motivation for jumping--possibly even to its death, since according to
you
> (or at least I'm inferring this) we never see it again.
>
> Nice to have you back in the Devil's Advocate Position, William!

Oh, don't forget me, Robert! It's my favorite Position, and I think with
William that your tortured explanations are completely *unnecessary.*
The 8-legged thingie is Babbie, whom Mucor has sent to be Horn's
companion and guardian. That's why he jumps and swims. Why do you need
to drag Neighbors or some anonymous critter into what seems perfectly
obvious? It's the hus, the whole hus, nothing but the hus.

-alga


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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) Oreb-Scylla?
Date: 23 Aug 2000 17:41:48 

First, for limping heroes, let's not forget Delany's mob, from Lobey to Kid, who go about with one shoe . . . .

On to Oreb.  I don't find the evidence presented thus far at all convincing.  Just because Oreb sees Scylla in the lake and another person sees Scylla walking beside Oreb and someone else doesn't prove that Oreb is being ridden by Scylla.  What we see of Scylla, for example when she rides Chenille, is a personality that exhibits vicious and bloodthirsty characteristics utterly foreign to Oreb's character.  I don't have an explanation for, nor do I dispute, the association of Scylla and Oreb, which Wolfe goes out of his way to establish; I just am not convinced of the identity of the two.  A Scylla-ridden Oreb would be a much different, and less likable and wise, bird.  Not only that, but the same objection people have been making to the "golden rule" explanation of the Inhumu secret applies here -- it's too simple and obvious; Wolfe is more devious than that.  I would go so far as to predict that the secret of Oreb's nature will play a great part in the third volume, and may e!
!
ven turn out to be related to that of the inhumu.

I couldn't help but notice in the description of the Neighbors given earlier how similar they appear to augurs . . . who are themselves, as we know, executioners as well.  

This list is plowing some interesting ground lately -- thanks to all!

Falcon

www.sff.net/people/stilskin
_______________________________________________
Get free Internet access at www.thesimpsons.com

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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Return to Whorl cover
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:42:58 

I got the Tor winter catalogue yesterday and there is a b&w reproduction
of the next book's cover in it. For Feb. A huge odd-but-benign looking
(eyes too close together; actually he looks like a lot of elderly
character actors) old guy wearing something like a medieval cap (blunt
soft point falling sloppily toward the forehead) holds in his hand a
tiny Horn--is it only Horn or is Horn holding someone else--Babbie?
Fuzzy graphics make it hard for me to tell--perhaps it is just Horn
alone. Above but close, Oreb is soaring.

-alga


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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:41:39 

Alga spoke thus:

>This may well be true in "The Night Chough," which only you and mantis
>seem to have read. But there's not a tweak of evidence for it in the
>five books we have all read. Scylla has apparently been there (for the
>story), done that and skedaddled.

Although I think we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop and
reveal what all the Scylla foreshadowing in Short Sun so far is about.
But if it turns out to be Oreb, I'll be (right now I think)
unpleasantly surprised.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Brother & Sister (Geographically speaking)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:16:22 

John Roberson detailed:

>If humans offer themselves willingly to the inhumu, who then develop
>something of their soul/spirit of not harming others and being
>self-sacrificing, then those inhumu will quit feeding on other humans.
>Feeding from only non-sentient animals, they would lose their sentience and
>revert to blood-sucking croc vermin.  While this would get rid of the
inhumu
>problem, it would be somewhat contrary to Incanto's ethical stance, since
he
>believes the inhumu spirits to be developing "souls" and to do something
>that would revert them back to beasts would be "killing" their human-like
>spirits.

Besides the fact that even if the inhumi felt a *human* compulsion as
reverted
back to beast status, once they regained beast status they would forget the
*human* compulsion not to feed on other humans.  Once again as animals
they would naturally feed on humans and regain human nature.  An endless
cycle but not the destruction of inhumi or the salvation of humans.

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:48:43 

At 06:26 PM 8/24/00 -0500, Endymion wrote:
>It seems that just by observing a human the inhuma was able to shape itself
>as a human (although maybe a rough version of one) and talk.  Unless all of
>this ability came from its parent feeding off of humans previously??  By
>feeding on humans I would suspect the inhuma can then perfect its imitation.

This gives more support for my belief that the inhumi have some sort of
telepathy to enhance their predation, but it's weak support. We know that
they camouflage themselves as their prey; feeding on humans merely makes
the camouflage better. 



-- 
   Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games 
   kmaroney@ungames.com | (212) 777-1190

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Oreb, orbs ,and eight-legged thingies.
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:15:02 

Falcon having written:

<On to Oreb.  I don't find the evidence presented thus far at all
convincing.  Just because Oreb sees Scylla in the lake and another person
sees Scylla walking beside Oreb and someone else doesn't prove that Oreb is
being ridden by Scylla.>

Note the very last line from "The Night Chough" that I quote. In the
original text the word "Scylla" is italicized. But it's what follows that's
important. "That was the bird. And not the bird." In other words, Oreb is
saying "Scylla," but it's actually Scylla (and not the bird) that's
providing the information. My argument: that if you're a god and you're
using a bird for your mouthpiece, you're riding it.

Re: William Ansley's gentle reminder that he was the first to speculate upon
the following:

<Horn gave his eye to Pig. And Marble's daughter gave up one of her eyes for
her mother.>

My humble apologies toWilliam for not remembering this and therefore
attributing the Horn-to-Pig ocular transferal speculation to him.

Mr. Ansley then writing:

<It is *completely* certain to me that an eight-legged creature one-third(?)
the height of a man will look more like a cluster of (shorter than a man)
boys or two men on their hands and knees (short
- because doubled over - and with eight leg-like - because of  position -
limbs) than a Neighbor, who is as tall as or taller than a man and has only
four leg-like limbs (and, of course, four arm-like
ones).>

All right, just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right here. The
8-legged thingie is merely some indigenous, but anonymous, member of Blue's
faunal kingdom. What possesses it to jump from the cliff to the sea? If
directed by Mucor, what has she done so? In other words what are we make of
this leap in a broader context? Also: when last seen, the eight-legged
thingie has plunged into the water and disappeared very near to Horn's boat.
Just coincidentally, when Babbie first appears upon the scene some few
hundred words later, it's also in the water very near to the boat. I just
think the simplest most elegant solution is to assume both are one and the
same. If I'm wrong, I still need to understand the 8-legged beastie's
motivation for jumping--possibly even to its death, since according to you
(or at least I'm inferring this) we never see it again.

Nice to have you back in the Devil's Advocate Position, William!

Robert Borski





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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Babbie; Scylla; Oreb in the Night Chough
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:31:30 

alga and William Ansley writing respectively:

>It's the hus, the whole hus, nothing but the hus.

>But, Babbie *is* an eight legged beastie! I just think it was Babbie
the whole time. Most likely under Mucor's control then, and perhaps
later.<

Essentially, the three of us are in agreement here, all thinking the
eight-legged creature is Babbie. I just believe Babbie is more than a
regulation hus, especially given Horn's rather oblique description of it.
Why, for example, doesn't he call it Babbie (who he's seen up close)? At
this stage he still has two good eyes, and is even far-sighted enough to
describe the expression on Mucor's distant face ("her face the face of
General Mint restrained by subordinate"). But now Babbie is "a small dark
figure that seemed almost a cluster of boys, or two men upon their hands and
knees"? Is Horn-the-writer simply being elliptical here? Color me curious.

alga then continuing:

<This may well be true in "The Night Chough," which only you and mantis seem
to have read. But there's not a tweak of evidence for it in the five books
we have all read. Scylla has apparently been there (for the story), done
that and skedaddled.>

I'm curious, alga, if you have any thoughts about why then in GREEN's Proper
Names In The Text, Wolfe parenthetically includes information about how
Scylla is "also a sea-monster of the Red Sea Whorl"--since it doesn't seem
to play (selon toi) a part in the Green narrative at all. Also curious if
you're still holding to your Mother-as-undine theory, and how you fit
undines into the Short Sun weltanschauung.

Falcon then ruminating:

<Just because Oreb sees Scylla in the lake and another person sees Scylla
walking beside Oreb and someone else doesn't prove that Oreb is being ridden
by Scylla.  What we see of Scylla, for example when she rides Chenille, is a
personality that exhibits vicious and bloodthirsty characteristics utterly
foreign to Oreb's character. [snip] A Scylla-ridden Oreb would be a much
different, and less likable and wise, bird.>

Oreb, in "The Night Chough," is a somewhat more sinister figure, even going
so far as to suggest which weapons Starling use to avenge the murder of his
girlfriend. Then again, the murderers (who also sexually assault Lily) are
hardly sympathetic figures. (Hurry up, Kevin M. and reread the story. Surely
others on the list have read TNC?)

Robert Borski




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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:26:02 

Just reread this section and have some observations and questions.

Observations:
The little inhuma started off it's life in an egg.

Then emerged from the egg and found a swamp/pond.

She had claws.

She swam with fishes and fed on fishes.
"And every day they grew stronger and fewer, for the fish on which they fed,
fed on them."

But there is no mention of assuming fish form.  In fact after seeing
Incanto's leader
"For a time, she ran behind him on all fours like a dog."  So four clawed
legs?  So does everything on Green have four legs? (Neighbors, inhuma)  I
see no description of how many legs a grabber has.  Many animals of Blue
have eight legs.  Why the 4 legs vs. 8 legs difference in the two planets?

Just by seeing Incanto's leader and not yet having fed on him she assumes
human form.
"She stood up as he did, and toddled along behind him, leaving her baby
footprints in the mud."

And is able to talk in the human tongue.

"The little girl whose adventures I have been recounting to you knew nothing
of heroes and swords, ...

...as the grabber was dead she overcame her natural shyness sufficiently to
speak to the leader who had killed it and saved her, offering her timid
thanks and after some hesitation venturing to say that she thought his was
the best shape for everyone."

It's funny that Incanto suddenly switches from Fava's point of view to his
own and retells the story.

"'Can You talk?' I shook it.  It swung its head from side to side, then
nodded.  Already its lizard's face was softening a little, melting."

"'What's your name?' 'Mee.'"

It seems that just by observing a human the inhuma was able to shape itself
as a human (although maybe a rough version of one) and talk.  Unless all of
this ability came from its parent feeding off of humans previously??  By
feeding on humans I would suspect the inhuma can then perfect its imitation.

Question:
Why did Fava say that what the inhuma were doing in the water was bad?

"As soon as she laid eyes on him, she knew that everything she and her
playmates had been doing in the river was wrong, and pulled herself up onto
the bank."

Is she saying that by seeing a human she realized that being a simple
animal/lizard, eating and surviving as a lizard, is wrong?  That it is
better to be a human?  What would make an animal feel this way upon seeing a
human?  Why would this thought even enter an animal's brain?


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n029
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:29:29 

From Sieur Borski:

> alga then continuing:
>
> <This may well be true in "The Night Chough," which only you and
mantis seem
> to have read. But there's not a tweak of evidence for it in the five
books
> we have all read. Scylla has apparently been there (for the story),
done
> that and skedaddled.>
>
> I'm curious, alga, if you have any thoughts about why then in GREEN's
Proper
> Names In The Text, Wolfe parenthetically includes information about
how
> Scylla is "also a sea-monster of the Red Sea Whorl"--since it doesn't
seem
> to play (selon toi) a part in the Green narrative at all. Also curious
if
> you're still holding to your Mother-as-undine theory, and how you fit
> undines into the Short Sun weltanschauung.

The Red Sun Whorl is, of course, Urth. And if Urth is Earth in any way
Scylla is indeed a sea-monster of ancient mythology. But I have no idea
why wicked Mr. Wolfe identified her that way and I agree that it seems
left fieldish. I had forgotten that I ever advanced the Mother-as-undine
theory--you have a good memory! No, I don't hold to it now; the Mother
seems rather more complicated than an undine. I wonder if we will ever
know more about her--perhaps not. There are some equally mysterious
Mothers in German mythology that continue to baffle.

> Falcon then ruminating:
>
> <Just because Oreb sees Scylla in the lake and another person sees
Scylla
> walking beside Oreb and someone else doesn't prove that Oreb is being
ridden
> by Scylla.  What we see of Scylla, for example when she rides
Chenille, is a
> personality that exhibits vicious and bloodthirsty characteristics
utterly
> foreign to Oreb's character. [snip] A Scylla-ridden Oreb would be a
much
> different, and less likable and wise, bird.>
>
> Oreb, in "The Night Chough," is a somewhat more sinister figure, even
going
> so far as to suggest which weapons Starling use to avenge the murder
of his
> girlfriend. Then again, the murderers (who also sexually assault Lily)
are
> hardly sympathetic figures. (Hurry up, Kevin M. and reread the story.
Surely
> others on the list have read TNC?)

I suppose Wombat will take me to task for copyright violation if I
publically wonder if anyone could be persuaded to photocopy this story
and pass it out to those interested. (In fact, Wombat, it's not a
violation if it's for private use.) If someone sent ME a copy, I would
gladly act as a conduit just so we could all figure out what we're
talking about here.

-alga


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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:02:39 

At 6:13 PM -0400 8/24/00, alga <akt@attglobal.net> wrote:
>  > Nice to have you back in the Devil's Advocate Position, William!
>
>Oh, don't forget me, Robert! It's my favorite Position [...]

And you hold it much more gracefully than ever I could, alga. <g>

-- 
William Ansley

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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Oreb, orbs ,and eight-legged thingies.
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:37:06 

At 1:15 AM -0500 8/24/00, Robert Borski wrote:

>Mr. Ansley then writing:
>
><It is *completely* certain to me that an eight-legged creature one-third(?)
>the height of a man will look more like a cluster of (shorter than a man)
>boys or two men on their hands and knees (short
>- because doubled over - and with eight leg-like - because of  position -
>limbs) than a Neighbor, who is as tall as or taller than a man and has only
>four leg-like limbs (and, of course, four arm-like
>ones).>
>
>All right, just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right here. The
>8-legged thingie is merely some indigenous, but anonymous, member of Blue's
>faunal kingdom. What possesses it to jump from the cliff to the sea? If
>directed by Mucor, what has she done so? In other words what are we make of
>this leap in a broader context? Also: when last seen, the eight-legged
>thingie has plunged into the water and disappeared very near to Horn's boat.
>Just coincidentally, when Babbie first appears upon the scene some few
>hundred words later, it's also in the water very near to the boat. I just
>think the simplest most elegant solution is to assume both are one and the
>same. If I'm wrong, I still need to understand the 8-legged beastie's
>motivation for jumping--possibly even to its death, since according to you
>(or at least I'm inferring this) we never see it again.

But, Babbie *is* an eight legged beastie! I just think it was Babbie 
the whole time. Most likely under Mucor's control then, and perhaps 
later.

>Nice to have you back in the Devil's Advocate Position, William!

Well, it's nice to be back.

William Ansley
-- 
William Ansley

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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n029
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:23:34 

At 11:29 AM 8/26/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I suppose Wombat will take me to task for copyright violation if I
>publically wonder if anyone could be persuaded to photocopy this story
>and pass it out to those interested. 

Me? No, never. <whistles quietly and looks the other way>

>(In fact, Wombat, it's not a violation if it's for private use.) 

That's not precisely true: copying is perfectly allowed for *personal*
use--i.e., if you own a work, you can make copies of it for your own use. 

But this is clearly limited copying for valid purposes of scholarship. I
don't think anyone would contest that this is reasonable fair use, no
different than copying out of a library. 

>If someone sent ME a copy, I would
>gladly act as a conduit just so we could all figure out what we're
>talking about here.

I'll see what I can do about getting you a copy. 

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) IGJ <Spoilers> Fava's Second Story
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:46:18 +0100

At 18:26 2000-08-24 -0500, Endymion9 wrote:
>Just reread this section and have some observations and questions.
>
...
>"For a time, she ran behind him on all fours like a dog."  So four clawed
>legs?  So does everything on Green have four legs? (Neighbors, inhuma)  I
>see no description of how many legs a grabber has.  Many animals of Blue
>have eight legs.  Why the 4 legs vs. 8 legs difference in the two planets?

They're different planets! They might exchange microbes via meteorites,
but life would have evolved separately. The particular numbers might be
significant to the story somehow; does anyone think there is any more
to this than providing Horn with an eight-legged horse?

>Just by seeing Incanto's leader and not yet having fed on him she assumes
>human form.
>"She stood up as he did, and toddled along behind him, leaving her baby
>footprints in the mud."
>
>And is able to talk in the human tongue.

I wondered about that. It's not unreasonable in this universe,
perhaps, where memory is chemical and replicated throughout the body.
The infant inhumu presumably talk to one another in the Common Tongue?


>It's funny that Incanto suddenly switches from Fava's point of view to his
>own and retells the story.

I took this to be him writing about what had happened after the fact,
not something that he said at the time. But then it's harder to see
how he "got into the story". What was that all about, anyway? If this
is Fava's own childhood, as we must strongly suspect it is, did he get
into *that* and change it? A bit of time travel between sentences? Or
is this the telepathic link that's invoked to explain seeing the trees?

>"'Can You talk?' I shook it.  It swung its head from side to side, then
>nodded.  Already its lizard's face was softening a little, melting."
>
>"'What's your name?' 'Mee.'"
>
>It seems that just by observing a human the inhuma was able to shape itself
>as a human (although maybe a rough version of one) and talk.  Unless all of
>this ability came from its parent feeding off of humans previously??  By
>feeding on humans I would suspect the inhuma can then perfect its imitation.
>
>Question:
>Why did Fava say that what the inhuma were doing in the water was bad?
>
>"As soon as she laid eyes on him, she knew that everything she and her
>playmates had been doing in the river was wrong, and pulled herself up onto
>the bank."
>
>Is she saying that by seeing a human she realized that being a simple
>animal/lizard, eating and surviving as a lizard, is wrong?  That it is
>better to be a human?  What would make an animal feel this way upon seeing a
>human?  Why would this thought even enter an animal's brain?

She has a lot of human in her, though, via the blood supply left
(as I read it) in the egg by her mother.

Sbearo.


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Oh, no, not a Sex Secret! (pronoun problem)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:29:07 

I can't believe I'm becoming a Secret sharer in any way. But please have
a look at IGJ 81-83. This is the scene where the Secret is actually
imparted and Horn does understand it "and what happened almost twenty
years ago;" (Krait being about 20, or 21 I'd say). Horn has vision of
"wicked women" and "brutal giants" and believes he is sharing Krait's
vision as a gift from the Outsider "to share Krait's thoughts, and to
see Green's jungle as Krait himself did."

"To see it as our blood allowed him to see it."

In the next paragraph he says "You feared that jungle, I know; so did I
at times." I think the "you" is Sinew. But what on earth is "our" as in
blood?  Yours and mine, Sinew because I'm your dad? Yours and mine,
Krait, because you just took a nibble from me and I'm sort of your dad
too? Yours and mine, Outsider? The blood that you, Sinew, and Krait
share (re his mother), part of which I contributed genetically (this is
ridiculous). It can't possibly be sexual, can it?  Twenty years ago? How
the hell do they reproduce? Those women and "brutal giants" do seem like
part of a primitive fertility rite.

I hope I'm not awarded the dreaded Borski prize for this.

-alga





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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Or maybe something insectoid
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:54:48 

It couldn't have been sex; we know that from Jahlee's troubles. But what
if Krait's mother were already gravid (or about to be, or whatever they
do) and the first bite imprinted the foetus (or whatever it is). Maybe
it's that first bite.

Now I know I'm up for the Borski prize.

-alga


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From: "james jordan" <jbjordan@gnt.net>
Subject: RE: (whorl) Pretty impressive, Alex
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:52:58 



You definitely had the idea before I did--I didn't read Long Sun until
well after Exodus had been published (had to dodge spoilers on this
list for a while).  While I agree with Nutria that there are a lot of
"imitation of Christ" elements to Silk's story, ignoring the Moses
element in a series that ends with a book called Exodus is unwise.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)

	Perhaps. And since Wolfe tosses lots of things together, I have no problem.
But remember that at his transfiguration Jesus spoke of the "exodus" he was
about to accomplish in Jerusalem. Wolfe hears that passage read annually in
mass on Transfig. Sunday, so it might be Jesus' situation that is all he
intends. Remember that Jesus also does not "enter" the new church age,
except via his spirit, and what we see in Wolfe is that not Silk but Oreb
comes to the new planets.
	Also, I'm not seeing any way that Horn could be Joshua.

Patera Nutricious


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From: Nigel Price <NigelPrice1@compuserve.com>
Subject: (whorl) Report on the Gene Wolfe Symposium
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:15:54 

Grateful thanks to Jonathan Laidlow for organising, and to the English
Department of the University of Birmingham for hosting, Saturday's Gene
Wolfe Symposium. It was a fascinating day, and it was great to meet some of
the British-based members of the Urth and Whorl lists.

The morning was devoted to the Book of the New Sun, and, not having
finished writing up my paper (some lame excuse about holidays and visitors
from the States) I mumbled and stumbled my way through my notes on a
proposed explanation of the Urth cycle in terms of a combination of topical
satire and allusive neo-platonic hierarchies. (Alga, you asked ages and
ages ago if you could have a copy of my paper when it was finished. Yes, of
course you can - I should be very interested in your comments. All I've got
to do is finish writing the wretched thing first! I'll send you a copy as
soon as it's done, but don't hold your breath!)

Plenty of constructive discussion on that, and then on to a paper from
James Russell on the strategies which Gene Wolfe employs in the Urth cycle
to convey the strangeness of his post-historic world. Some fascinating
analysis, particularly on the use of arbitrary and apparently illogical
systems of categorisation to describe society and natural phenomena as a
means of depicting alien patterns of thought and cultural assumptions.

After a buffet lunch, we had a helpful update from Peter Wright, on the
current state of the publishing of Lupine literary criticism - more
encouraging than I had expected - followed by a few tantalisingly brief
glimpses of Peter's own forthcoming book on Wolfe, which I am very much
looking forward to reading.

Peter then went on to read us his paper on post-colonialism in The Fifth
Head of Cerberus. An overtly political interpretation of the book, Peter
explored not only the contrast between the stifling immutability of Number
Five's cloned family and the shape-changing mimicry of the native Annese,
but also the political and sociological implications of cultural imitation,
as the colonised both flatter and satirise their colonisers by adopting
their ways and values. In this reading, such imitation leads to the
inevitable corruption of the colonised, a snare only avoided by a mutual
willingness to embrace cultural and racial hybridity. This hybridity is
represented in Fifth Head by the ambiguous figure of Marsch-Trenchard,
whose eventual imprisonment reprents the failure of the colonial society of
St Croix and St Anne to accept this option.

(Did I get all that right?  Other attendees correct me, please!)

After further discussion, Jonathan Laidlow read the last paper of the day,
Nick Gevers' exploration of the spiritual plight of the chems in the Long
and Short Sun book. Nick helpfully categorises the different types of
artificial life in these stories, and examines their tragic limitations as
soulless beings. Despite their aspirations to humanity and even godhood,
they remain inferior to human beings, and stay trapped in their mechanical
and electronic existence, even as most are forced to remain on the failing
Whorl when the human colonists finally leave for Blue and Green.

(Is that a fair summary, Nick?)

A final round of discussion of Nick's ideas took us to the end of the
afternoon, leaving us with no time for the day's last programmed item, a
proposed discussion of Wolfe's mysterious short story "A Solar Labyrinth".
A shame, because I would have liked to have heard what everyone had to say.

Of course, even after so much discussion, some important Lupine mysteries
remained. How do you pronounce "Gevers"? (Or "Andre-Driussi", for that
matter.) What does Robert Borski do for a living? Will we ever get to read
"Soldier of Sidon"? And what music does Gene Wolfe listen to while
pedalling his exercise bike in his basement at six o'clock in the morning?
(Peter Wright has introduced him to the gentle lyricism of Iron Maiden -
frightening thought - and confirms that GW listens to a lot of folk music.
I'd always imagined that he listened to Country, a guess which was
partially confirmed by Those-In-The-Know, but what else does he play on the
lupine hi-fi?)

It was an excellent day, and I look forward both to reading the published
papers, and to next year's event...

Nigel

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: sex secret
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:09:44 

alga having written:

<In the next paragraph he says "You feared that jungle, I know; so did I at
times." I think the "you" is Sinew. But what on earth is "our" as in blood?
Yours and mine, Sinew because I'm your dad? Yours and mine, Krait, because
you just took a nibble from me and I'm sort of your dad
too? Yours and mine, Outsider? The blood that you, Sinew, and Krait share
(re his mother), part of which I contributed genetically (this is
ridiculous). It can't possibly be sexual, can it?  Twenty years ago? How the
hell do they reproduce? Those women and "brutal giants" do seem like part of
a primitive fertility rite.>

Your question about reproduction is one I've pondered myself, but mainly in
the Green-Blue-Green transmission route. Do I have this right? An inhuma
flies to Blue from Green during a conjunction and then spends the next seven
years attempting to slake her blood thirst. During the next conjunction (or
the following one?), she returns to Green, where she mates with an inhumu
(or might this happen while still on Blue?), reproduces, and the resultant
egg incubates in the uv-rich climate of Green until it hatches. (Are there
no equatorial hot zones on Blue? Is Green that much closer orbitally to the
sun?) This seems to me like an extremely awkward reproductive strategy--even
if the inhumi lay multiple eggs. It also means in Krait's case that he must
undertake the hazardous hejira to Blue probably during the first conjunction
he witnesses, but if he wants to reproduce go back again later. ("Hmmm. Food
or sex? Well, you can never be too thin.") Also: how exactly does the
blood-to-egg core personality transfer work? If I'm an inhuma, does the
first, middle or last person I dine on imprint my offspring? And do the male
inhumu's sero-victims contribute nothing?

All these questions notwithstanding, I'm still leaning toward the theory
that the inhumi secret will involve some physiological aspect of their
biology, either digestive or reproductive, and note the extensive use of
sewer imagery in the series so far, from the fouled sewers in New Viron, to
Inclito's municipal wonders, to the Styx-like necropolis on Green. The Latin
word for sewer, of course, is cloaca. Make of that what you will.

<I hope I'm not awarded the dreaded Borski prize for this.>

Nah. Not nearly wild, speculative or loopy enough, alga. Try harder next
time.

Robert Borski






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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) RE: Digest whorl.v011.n027
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:47:17 

Roberson, John wrote:

>         If humans offer themselves willingly to the inhumu, who then develop
> something of their soul/spirit of not harming others and being
> self-sacrificing, then those inhumu will quit feeding on other humans.
> Feeding from only non-sentient animals, they would lose their sentience and
> revert to blood-sucking croc vermin.  While this would get rid of the inhumu
> problem, it would be somewhat contrary to Incanto's ethical stance, since he
> believes the inhumu spirits to be developing "souls" and to do something
> that would revert them back to beasts would be "killing" their human-like
> spirits.

And if humans offered themselves knowing that it would result in the
inhumi losing their intelligence, they would not be acting in the spirit
of not harming others, so the inhumi would not imbibe this spirit, so
they wouldn't stop feeding on humans, so they wouldn't lose their
intelligence, so the self-sacrificing humans wouldn't be harming them,
so...

--Adam

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) Blue/Green orbits, and other things
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:56:24 

First off, welcome John Clute: we honor you as "First Tracker" and "Major
Inspiration"! <everybody give the big Wolfe Howl>

Second, thank you Nigel Price for the symposium report.  Sounds like it was
really great!

Finally, the latest saga of "(more) Orbital Thoughts" (heh).  With IGJ it
seems to me that the model for Blue and Green is more like what we first
thought, that is, Blue is to Earth as Green is to Venus.  Green has an
orbital eccentricity that brings it frighteningly close--really, this is
spitting distance.

I visualize it this way: Blue's orbit as a circle, Green's orbit as
egg-shaped (should be an oval, but still). Blue pokes its way around the
circle, Green careens around in a fraction of the time it takes Blue; and
every six years they have their closest encounter.  Every year Green
arrives at that spot of apocentron (furthest from the star), but only every
sixth year is Blue actually there when it arrives.

So Green rides from the inner edge of the ecosphere out to the middle or
mid-outer edge.  (This "ecosphere" [known by a number of different names]is
the band of orbital space where water can be in a liquid state: inside the
inner edge, water boils off; outside the outer edge, water freezes up
permanently.) In our solar system, we would have to move Venus outward to,
say, .75 AU (the width of the ecosphere is contested by some) at its
pericentron and 1 AU for its apocentron.

Does anybody recall what we know about the length of years on Blue?  We
safely assume that the Whorl years are Urth years, but how close to that
standard are Blue years? (I've recently been giving myself a headache
[again, mind you!] over the length of years in 5HC . . . )

"Some call it a cattle barge, but others call it the `Love Boat'"; or
another observation on young inhumi on Blue: hey, don't forget the landers
that make the crossing from time to time.

=mantis=



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From: David Wells <ADW@ovum.com>
Subject: (whorl) Inhumi secret again
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:08:09 +0100

I think the idea of a voluntary sacrifice of some kind has all the right
qualities to be "the secret".
 
But the details seem elusive - especially as wielding the secret is supposed
to return the inhumi to the status of dumb predators.
 
Suppose, however, that the inhumi were to feed from zoanthrops?
Like those involved in the melee with the alzabo, Severian and the Little
Severian's doomed family in Ch. XVIII of The Sword of the Lictor?
Would not the result be exactly what Horn states to be that of wielding the
secret - to make them "stop thinking forever"?
 
...which leaves the question of who is going to "volunteer" to be
lobotomised and fed to the inhumi...
 
It's logical, I think, although I can't pretend to believe that it's a very
_satisfying_ theory. What do you think?
 
old newt
P.S. I also think that the question of what happened to the "wonderful"
inhumi who had fed from the Neighbours, and the offspring who presumably
inherited some of that wonderousness, is an interesting one.
P.P.S. The alzabo, needless to say, as a supernaturally and adaptively
imitative predator, is extremely analogous to the inhumi. But the alzabo
never got to snack on a zoanthrop, because of the near-100% body count which
resulted from their encounter. Hmmm...
 

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Between worlds: inhumi-powered flight
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:44:50 

This will probably put me at odds with the usual bunch, but I'd like now to
suggest that the entire notion about how the inhumi are able to fly back and
forth between Green and Blue is folklore concocted by the
scientifically-illiterate colonists.

Consider the following two passages from BLUE:

"The inhumi can fly...They can even fly through the airless vastness of the
abyss, passing from Green to Blue, and back to Green, when they are at or
near conjunction. I have never understood how that was possible." (180)

This does not stop Horn, however, from speculating thusly:

"By an extreme effort, they could 'jump' out of the great sea of air
surrounding the whorl they wished to leave, taking aim at the whorl to which
they wished to go. Their aim would not have to be precise, since they would
begin to fall toward the whorl they were trying to reach as soon as they
neared it. Landers, as I knew even then, must be built so that they will not
overheat when they arrive at a new whorl. But landers are much larger than
the largest boats, and being constructed almost entirely of metals, they
must be much heavier. The inhumi are not bigger than small men, although
they appear so large when their wings are spread; and even though they are
strong, they are no means heavy. Light objects fall much more slowly than
heavy ones, something that anyone may see by dropping a feather as I have
just dropped Oreb's here at my desk. The heat that troubles the landers must
present no great problems to the inhumi."

Apparently, basic science has never been taught at Horn's schola, and if an
equivalent speech were someday made in a George Lukas movie, we'd all be
howling our sides off. But by showing us how scientifically naïve Horn is, I
believe Wolfe is attempting to suggest that Horn and his fellow colonists do
not have the necessary background to see how wildly implausible
winged-flight between the two worlds is. "Jumping" so mightily they escape
Green's gravitational pull; "falling" toward their new destination; failing
to burn up when they hit the new whorl's atmosphere because they're lighter
than landers; these are the sorts of speculations an ignorant (if innocent)
person makes, but they are definitely not congruent to reality. (Horn does
not attempt to explain why an inhumu's blood gases don't boil off in the
vacuum of space, but his biology is also suspect; thus his failure to
explain correctly the facts of life to Mora, where nutrition and body fat
percentage are the primary determinants of menarche.) As for the observation
that the inhumi seem more plentiful during a conjunction, I'd like to
suggest that this is because the inhumi are simply seeking to exploit a
niche created by the giant storms and tidal havoc, and where there may be
quite a few displaced persons and ruined, vulnerable buildings; and that the
niche is why they migrate, not because the worlds are closer for a crossing.

But if the inhumi don't wing their way across the void, how do they
accomplish the transit? mantis has mentioned the landers already, but surely
there are not many of these. But what about the oneiric transport Incanto
uses, always undergone, at least so far, with an inhuma at his side? As
Krait at one time tells Horn,  "Our race is older than yours, and has
learned things that you can't even dream of." Could this then be the method
by which they access Blue--perhaps appropriated from the Neighbors as a
blood secret?

Because no matter which way the feather falls, I'm not buying the
wings-across-space theory.

Robert Borski




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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Between worlds: inhumi-powered flight
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:31:26 +0100

At 14:44 2000-08-29 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:
>This will probably put me at odds with the usual bunch, but I'd like now to
>suggest that the entire notion about how the inhumi are able to fly back and
>forth between Green and Blue is folklore concocted by the
>scientifically-illiterate colonists.

I suggested this a while ago, but alga had some evidence that they
really could:

>
>Yes, they really can (see LS3, the end). They shut down their breathing.
>But they can't do it for very long distances, only when the two worlds are
>at their closest conjunction. They come to Blue to feed (assuming that the
>Green colonists are not enough for them), but they need to return to Green
>to breed. Landers are not part of the scenario, as they are not good with
>tools (Krait pretty much tells us this). 

Of course, they do have human slaves, now. I can't look up the passage
alga cites until I get home; anyone recall the details?

As for the science, I might believe they could survive re-entry,
being able to spread their wings like a parachute, but then how
would it be possible to kill them by burning? Horn reports seeing
this during his visit to (?)Skano.

Sbearo.


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From: "Josh Levitan" <josh_levitan@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:25:27 PDT

>This will probably put me at odds with the usual bunch, but I'd like now to
>suggest that the entire notion about how the inhumi are able to fly back 
>and
>forth between Green and Blue is folklore concocted by the
>scientifically-illiterate colonists.
>
>Consider the following two passages from BLUE:
>
>"The inhumi can fly...They can even fly through the airless vastness of the
>abyss, passing from Green to Blue, and back to Green, when they are at or
>near conjunction. I have never understood how that was possible." (180)
>
>This does not stop Horn, however, from speculating thusly:
>
>"By an extreme effort, they could 'jump' out of the great sea of air
>surrounding the whorl they wished to leave, taking aim at the whorl to 
>which
>they wished to go. Their aim would not have to be precise, since they would
>begin to fall toward the whorl they were trying to reach as soon as they
>neared it. Landers, as I knew even then, must be built so that they will 
>not
>overheat when they arrive at a new whorl. But landers are much larger than
>the largest boats, and being constructed almost entirely of metals, they
>must be much heavier. The inhumi are not bigger than small men, although
>they appear so large when their wings are spread; and even though they are
>strong, they are no means heavy. Light objects fall much more slowly than
>heavy ones, something that anyone may see by dropping a feather as I have
>just dropped Oreb's here at my desk. The heat that troubles the landers 
>must
>present no great problems to the inhumi."
>
>Apparently, basic science has never been taught at Horn's schola, and if an
>equivalent speech were someday made in a George Lukas movie, we'd all be
>howling our sides off. But by showing us how scientifically naïve Horn is, 
>I
>believe Wolfe is attempting to suggest that Horn and his fellow colonists 
>do
>not have the necessary background to see how wildly implausible
>winged-flight between the two worlds is. "Jumping" so mightily they escape
>Green's gravitational pull; "falling" toward their new destination; failing
>to burn up when they hit the new whorl's atmosphere because they're lighter
>than landers; these are the sorts of speculations an ignorant (if innocent)
>person makes, but they are definitely not congruent to reality. (Horn does
>not attempt to explain why an inhumu's blood gases don't boil off in the
>vacuum of space, but his biology is also suspect; thus his failure to
>explain correctly the facts of life to Mora, where nutrition and body fat
>percentage are the primary determinants of menarche.) As for the 
>observation
>that the inhumi seem more plentiful during a conjunction, I'd like to
>suggest that this is because the inhumi are simply seeking to exploit a
>niche created by the giant storms and tidal havoc, and where there may be
>quite a few displaced persons and ruined, vulnerable buildings; and that 
>the
>niche is why they migrate, not because the worlds are closer for a 
>crossing.
>
>But if the inhumi don't wing their way across the void, how do they
>accomplish the transit? mantis has mentioned the landers already, but 
>surely
>there are not many of these. But what about the oneiric transport Incanto
>uses, always undergone, at least so far, with an inhuma at his side? As
>Krait at one time tells Horn,  "Our race is older than yours, and has
>learned things that you can't even dream of." Could this then be the method
>by which they access Blue--perhaps appropriated from the Neighbors as a
>blood secret?
>
>Because no matter which way the feather falls, I'm not buying the
>wings-across-space theory.
>
>Robert Borski

Then Peter Westlake wrote:
>
>I suggested this a while ago, but alga had some evidence that they
>really could:
>
> >
> >Yes, they really can (see LS3, the end). They shut down their breathing.
> >But they can't do it for very long distances, only when the two worlds 
>are
> >at their closest conjunction. They come to Blue to feed (assuming that 
>the
> >Green colonists are not enough for them), but they need to return to 
>Green
> >to breed. Landers are not part of the scenario, as they are not good with
> >tools (Krait pretty much tells us this).
>
>Of course, they do have human slaves, now. I can't look up the passage
>alga cites until I get home; anyone recall the details?
>
>As for the science, I might believe they could survive re-entry,
>being able to spread their wings like a parachute, but then how
>would it be possible to kill them by burning? Horn reports seeing
>this during his visit to (?)Skano.

I'm gonna have to agree with Borski on this one.  They can fly, and survive 
buried/in a vaccuum.  But how the hell can they reach escape velocity and 
survive re-entry.  Horn's explanation is very poor medieval-level science 
indeed, and it never even occurred to me until Borski pointed it out.

Narwhal
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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:59:21 


> At 14:44 2000-08-29 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:

>>>Your question about reproduction is one I've pondered myself, but
mainly in
the Green-Blue-Green transmission route. Do I have this right? An inhuma
flies to Blue from Green during a conjunction and then spends the next
seven
years attempting to slake her blood thirst. During the next conjunction
(or
the following one?), she returns to Green, where she mates with an
inhumu
(or might this happen while still on Blue?), reproduces, and the
resultant
egg incubates in the uv-rich climate of Green until it hatches. (Are
there
no equatorial hot zones on Blue? Is Green that much closer orbitally to
the
sun?) This seems to me like an extremely awkward reproductive
strategy--even
if the inhumi lay multiple eggs. It also means in Krait's case that he
must
undertake the hazardous hejira to Blue probably during the first
conjunction
he witnesses, but if he wants to reproduce go back again later. ("Hmmm.
Food
or sex? Well, you can never be too thin.") Also: how exactly does the
blood-to-egg core personality transfer work? If I'm an inhuma, does the
first, middle or last person I dine on imprint my offspring? And do the
male
inhumu's sero-victims contribute nothing?>>>

No, not exactly. Please, some other people look at IGJ 81-83 when Krait
is actually telling the Secret. Let's agree: Events of 20 years ago are
a big clue; it says so right here. Sinew is, let's say, between 21 and
25. An inhuma bit him as a toddler, dangerously, enough so that he
nearly died, maybe because he was so little and she didn't realize that
she had taken too much blood. My assumption has always been that
conjunction lasts long enough (weeks, months?) that an unhuma(u) could
make a round trip, which cuts out the 7-year thing. (And yes, there's
plenty of evidence--I'm not going to look up page numbers just now--that
they can make the trip at conjunction. Neighbors predated landers.)  No,
I am sure they can't reproduce on Blue; if they could there would be far
more of them on Blue, and it's necessary to the plot to have to have
them return.

The other evidence we have is Fava's second tale. But this is puzzling.
The baby vampires' birth seems almost exactly like that of baby turtles.
How would Krait have the least notion of who Mom was? Is some kind of
weird DNA instinct at work, the kind of thing that sends salmon
upstream? I had originally thought that the reason Krait seemed so like
Sinew to Horn was that Sinew himself was very like Horn--hence the
enmity--and that Krait, patterning himself as a younger Horn, became
very like Sinew. And this is still an attractive thought. But, reading
over p 81-83 again. I realize it must be more than that. Horn seems to
think it is more than that, too, though the last sentence of IGJ (such a
lovely sentence) soars it into metaphor.

The Secret has something to do with a fertile or gravid inhuma and a
human child. Of course, I don't really know that it has to be a child,
but it was in this case. Maybe an odd take on the changeling idea?

-alga


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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Night Chough
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:01:37 

A mole has just sent me "The Night Chough." I will photocopy and send
this to anyone who requests it (yes, overseas OK). Address
akt@attglobal.net or (better) al@playboy.com . Let me say in advance
that the evidence for other than momentary possession is virtually nil.
but you cam make up your own minds.

-alga


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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: changelings
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:36:11 

alga:

Here's another plot-point perhaps for your changeling theory.

From p.42 of OBW: "Have I said how closely Sinew resembled me? Perhaps not?
There was something devilish about it."

Given that the Gaonese call Green the Devil's Lantern and the Vironese had
to borrow the name inhumu from another town, "because we didn't know they
existed in Viron and had no name for them but 'devil,'" devilish seems a
rather interesting choice here.

But I'm also still puzzled by chronology. Are you suggesting that Krait's
mother, already gravid, makes the long swim through space to Blue, and then
takes sup on little Sinew? Because again this makes little sense
reproductively, especially if the inhumi are oviviparous and must return to
Green to lay their brood nests. What would be the point of such a trip if
she's already gravid? And since in nearly all oviviparous species, once an
ovum has been fertilized, the time between fertilization and the actual
egglaying is very brief, it's hard to believe an inhuma would have the time
to twice undergo the hazardous journey between planets (let alone the
energy).

<And yes, there's plenty of evidence--I'm not going to look up page numbers
just now--that
they can make the trip at conjunction.>

If and when you have the chance, I'd love to have said pages pointed out to
me. Because unless there's something Wolfe hasn't told us yet, I will always
maintain such notions are strictly the stuff of either older, more lurid,
science fiction or the latest issue of the National Inquirer. ("Vampires
Invade Stratosphere--Fly Here from the Moon!)

Robert Borski





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From: Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n032
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:14:39 +0200


> 
> I'm gonna have to agree with Borski on this one.  They can fly, and survive
> buried/in a vaccuum.  But how the hell can they reach escape velocity and
> survive re-entry.  Horn's explanation is very poor medieval-level science
> indeed, and it never even occurred to me until Borski pointed it out.
> 
> Narwhal
> _

Me neither, I'm ashamed to say - but Robert is quite right that the
muddled "explanation" seems to be a tip-off from Wolfe that all is
not quite what it seems. 

Al
-- 
.

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: (whorl) The Anatomy of Melancholy
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:28:24 


>To speak very broadly indeed, which I think is sometimes necessary 
>with Wolfe, it does strike me that the tonus (as distinguished from the 
>intellectual doctrinal structuring) of Wolfe's major works is anything but 
>Christian. Except maybe in certain parts of the book we are now 
>considering, the melacholia is profound: _In Blue's Waters_ , and many of 
>the later stories, are acts of heroism (it seems) against a very deep 
>sadness, which Christians (and others) might put a term to. I myself would 
>tend to cod gnosticism here: it feels like the occlusion or bondage of the 
>blinding world, to me. 

There are certainly some gnostic-seeming elements, but I think the key
may be to realize that Wolfe (even more than, say, Flannery O'Connor,
who was often seen as writing despairing or fundamentally pessimistic
fiction despite her claims otherwise) is artistically interested in
Christ-crucified more than Christ-triumphant, even in the moments of
revelation and transcendence (as at the end of URTH) in his work.
Rereading "The Death of Doctor Island" brought this point home.  Wolfe
loves Chesterton but really there is a huge difference in their
artistic attitudes to Christianity: Chesterton can't bear to damn a
character, even if it (possibly) hurts the work to avoid it (THE BALL
AND THE CROSS, for example) while Wolfe emphasizes, especially in his
short fiction, the extreme -jeopardy- of creatures with free will.
The deep sadness in Wolfe's work is a result of this, and while it is
doctrinally bounded, that bound is probably beyond fictional
exploration, as being beyond time.  Wolfe's work is time-haunted in
the extreme--especially with Severian there is an equation between
approaching divinity and stopping time (and raising the dead); but
that approach is asymptotic within the fiction's scope.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Horn/Babbie OBW and IGJ More Sinew/Krait Thoughts
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 18:43:30 

Just reread this passage in OBW p.377

"Someone on shore called again for Babbie, and I understood that he meant
me; it never so much occurred to me then that I had sometimes been called
"Silk" or "Horn."  He who called me seemed quite near, and he called me with
more urgency than Seawrack ever has.  I searched the shadows under the
closest trees for him without result.

I had on my trousers, with Hyacinth's azoth in the waistband, and I got my
tunic as well and the augur's black robe that Olivine had found in some
forgotten closet for me: I left behind the stockings, boots, sash, and the
jeweled vest.  For a moment I considered taking back my dagger and the sword
that I am too weak to use, but the voice from the forrest was calling to me
and there was no more time to waste upon inessentials.  I waded ashore and
set off through the forrest at a trot.  I have the pen case on which I am
writing and the rambling account of my failure, with a few other
possessions, because they were in the pockets of the robe."

I've read people speculating that Horn was switched into Babbie's body at
this point to hide him from the inhumi.  I see the references to realizing
whoever was calling Babbie was calling him and to trotting.  But I also see
him wearing trousers, with an azoth in the waistband etc.  For Horn to be in
Babbie's body in this passage some time must pass between the first and
second paragraphs above.  I don't see that.  Also, the voice calling him
from the forrest in the second paragraph would have to be someone calling
Horn and not Babbie since in the second paragraph he is definitely in a
human body.  What I don't understand is that some merging of Horn's &
Babbie's memories has occurred but at this point I don't believe Horn is in
Babbie's body.  Maybe Babbie's spirit is sharing Horn's body?


Now on a different tack.  Sinew and Krait.  I am about to reread OBW and IGJ
paying attention to any mentionings of Krait and Sinew.  I am looking for
evidence that they are different and not one.  The thought I will be trying
to disprove will be that Krait killed Sinew as a baby and took his place.  I
know in the final seedship scenes in OBW Horn mentions both Krait and Sinew
being there, but I am investigating whether Horn has trouble
remembering/wanting to remember that they are merely two different ways he
views one entity.

One of the reasons I am willing to consider this possibility is the
discussion on the Urth mailing list of the Ziggurat.  Knowing that is it
possible for Wolfe to write scenes which can be interpreted either literally
or metaphorically.

Another scene that comes to mind is the one alga keeps mentioning, IGW
81-83.  Did Sinew/Krait turn against/desert Horn and so he had Krait "die"
in his arms.  The faithful son he dreamed of, dying by his side, instead of
the disappointing Sinew.

If I have forgotten passages that clearly show Sinew and Krait as separate
please bring them to my attention.  It's very possible I have as I haven't
reread OBW (except for small passages here and there) since it first came
out.  I also know that looking at literal passages as metaphors can drive me
crazy in a Wolfe book, but want to explore this possibility anyway.


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Inhumu feeding/breeding cycle
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:48:41 EDT

Here's my two cents about the whole green/blue/green feed/breed cycle:
I don't think it's likely that the inhumu go back and forth as often as 
people have previously speculated.  In both books I believe, Horn says that 
even when the two planets are at conjunction, the trip between is dangerous 
and many imhumu do not survive (forgive me for not having and exact 
reference.)  Judging by the danger and said low success rate, I think that 
inhumu must be able to obtain enough blood and be able to breed on both 
plants.

Just my theory
  -Mnemonic
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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) The Secret
Date: 1 Sep 2000 05:31:02 

I think there are clues to the secret planted right from the start of the Long Sun books.  After all, Quetzal is an inhumu, and we come to know him better in many ways than the other inhumu characters in OBW and IGJ.  We know that Quetzal has been on the Whorl for generations.  Nor is he the only inhumu aboard.  Silk ministers to one of Orchid's girls after she's been bitten, and does the same for a little girl in his congregation whose name escapes me at the moment.  Indeed, there is a very suggestive episode in the first Long Sun book, shortly after the revived Oreb makes his appearance, in which Silk awakens from a troubled dream and sees a shadowy figure, which he mistakes for Oreb, leaving his room -- I can't prove it, but I suspect this is an inhumu, perhaps even Quetzal himself.  Has Silk been bitten?  Again, I can't prove it.  But it's interesting to think about.

On the subject of Oreb and the Night Chough, I'm with Alga all the way.  Clearly Scylla is speaking through Oreb as Mr. Borski says, but these are just as clearly isolated incidents.  All that is established in the story is something we knew before:  namely, that Oreb is sometimes ridden by a god.  That god, in my opinion, is not always Scylla.  In fact, I defy anyone to prove to me that Scylla has ever ridden Oreb before the occasions in this story, or after it. I remain attached to my original theory that one of the pieces of Pas was (or still is) in Oreb.  Here's another suggestive point:  Oreb is portrayed very often as perching upon Silk's (and in TNC, Starling's) shoulder.  Hmmm. . . .  A second, talking head upon a man's shoulder?  Where have we seen this before?

What's interesting is that TNC seems to be set on Blue.  If Scylla has made the journey, why couldn't the others as well?  I'm about to start rereading OBW, after plowing through all the Long Sun books again, and TNC, so perhaps I'll pick up some clues along these lines that I missed the first time . . .. 

Falcon


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From: Paul C Duggan <pduggan@world.std.com>
Subject: (whorl) 358 years
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:57:14 

358 years is an odd number

seven years from 358 will be 365 years.

Maybe something significant will happen to Silk in the 365th year, like
Enoch, who "was not".

Silk will be 365 years old, since he was an embryo when he joined the
whorl.

"I am an impure thinker. I am hurt, swayed, shaken, |  paul           + | +
elated, disillusioned, shocked, comforted, and I    |                 --|--
have to transmit my mental experiences lest I die." |                 + | +
                     --  Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy    |  pduggan@world.std.com


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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) From Green to Blue if you're a goose: some numbers
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:41:52 

Mnemonic having written:

<I don't think it's likely that the inhumu go back and forth as often as
people have previously speculated.  In both books I believe, Horn says that
even when the two planets are at conjunction, the trip between is dangerous
and many inhumu do not survive (forgive me for not having and exact
reference.)>

Here are some numbers I hope will help bring things a little more into
perspective about the trip from Green to Blue. They prove nothing other than
the arduous nature of the trip for creatures more familiar to us.

Green and Blue, at their closest point, are 35,000 leagues apart; this has
been determined by Gagliardo, the Soldese astronomer.

At 3 miles per league (LEXICON URTHUS), this amounts to 105,000 miles--over
four times the circumference around the Earth at the equator.

For a flock of geese to fly this distance, it would have to fly, at 50 mph
(its normal migratory speed) twenty-four hours a day, a total of 87 days, or
nearly three months.

Of course, maybe the inhumi can fly faster than 50mph, although I'm still
not sure how they propel themselves over that 105,000 miles of void. (I'll
spare you my theory about short digestive tracts and le Petomaine-type
locomotion.)

Robert Borski



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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Blue Breeders
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:09:37 

Mnemonic having written:

<Judging by the danger and said low success rate, I think that inhumu must
be able to obtain enough blood and be able to breed on both planets.>

I'm sort of with Mnemonic here and offer the following in support from IGJ
(212-13). Says Incanto:

"Many people believe that the inhumi may begin to breed on Blue as well as
Green. Quite some time ago, I theorized that they could not, that their eggs
were hatched by the heat of the short sun, which is not sufficiently intense
on Blue. Was I correct?"

Notice how Fava hedges her answer, however, saying not yes, or absolutely,
or gosh, you're really smart to have figured this out, Incanto, but instead:
"I think so."

Either she has no idea what he's talking about (although she is the smartest
"girl" at the schola), or she's having difficulty lying to her
pseudo-father. Moreover, given Horn's failure to grasp even the basics of
science, I believe his skills as a natural historian are probably just as
skewed.

So perhaps the inhumi can breed on Blue (like alligators in sewers, heh heh)
and interfering with components of their life cycle is part of the Great
Secret. Is it possible that a newly-born inhumu must immediately be exposed
to human blood--either directly or via its mother--in order to lay down a
general human imprint which becomes the core personality for the rest of its
natural life?

Robert Borski





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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) The Night Chough (Redux, Rebuttal)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:01:53 

Winged Falcon writing:

<On the subject of Oreb and the Night Chough, I'm with Alga all the way.
Clearly Scylla is speaking through Oreb as Mr. Borski says, but these are
just as clearly isolated incidents.  All that is established in the story is
something we knew before:  namely, that Oreb is sometimes ridden by a god.
That god, in my opinion, is not always Scylla.  In fact, I defy anyone to
prove to me that Scylla has ever ridden Oreb before the occasions in this
story, or after it.>

Well again I strongly disagree. Besides the two incidents I've already
mentioned (the dream at the end of OBW where "an angry and vindictive Scylla
talked like Oreb" and the "undulant arms" of dwarfish Oreb during Green Trip
II), I believe there's yet one other incident that shows Scylla is
attempting to contact Horn/Silk through Incanto. This one comes at the end
of Incanto's most vivid dream about Scylla yet (IGJ, 58-9). States Incanto:

At the end of each verse I read, I watched [Scylla] straining against the
page with all ten arms. Very faintly I could hear her cry, "Help! Help!" And
then "Beware! Beware!" like the bird in Inclito's Mother's story. I woke
up--or thought I did--but the printed Scylla was still with me, crying out,
"Help me! Help me!"

The bird in Inclito's Mother's story belongs to a tall man and is deemed a
familiare, just as Oreb has been earlier, with the tall man clearly being
either Silk or Horn (Inclito's mother may be doing the same sort of memory
doctoring as all those old duffers on Urth who claimed to be pals with
Fechin).

My problem with the one-time only approach that you and alga advocate is
this: it does not account for why Scylla is riding Oreb during the events
that transpire in "The Night Chough." Is it chance? Caprice? Ennui? An
accident? Surely, Starling does not seem the sort of individual that would
draw the interest of Scalding Scylla? Oh thou inscrutable gods!

Then again, look at the story's first four sentences, paying special
attention to the third.

******

Silk was gone, the black bird reminded itself. There was no point in
thinking about him.

No, it itself had gone.

Which was the same.

******

Given that we know Oreb has been absent from Horn and Gaon for over a year,
I believe this is what Wolfe means by "it itself had gone," signifying
Oreb's temporary abandoning of Horn--perhaps to look for someone that might
more readily resemble Silk. Where better to look than the city named after
Silk's homebase on the Whorl, New Viron (which makes you right after all,
mantis). Here Oreb is ridden by Scylla not because she's looking for cheap
thrills or doing the Nevermore schtick from Poe, but because she's looking
for Silk through Oreb, "which was the same."

Cavilers, beware: with one more volume to come, I believe a lot of you are
going to have to eat some major chough--er, crow.

Then again, if I'm the one who winds up eating a bunch of feathers, perhaps
I'll just fall that much more slowly next time I stumble.

Robert Borski













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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) vampires rocket from Green to Blue
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:46:21 

Robert Borski wrote:

>Of course, maybe the inhumi can fly faster than 50mph, although I'm still
>not sure how they propel themselves over that 105,000 miles of void. (I'll
>spare you my theory about short digestive tracts and le Petomaine-type
>locomotion.)

Oh good, I was going to mention bio-rocketry!

I was also toying with making ablative re-entry shields from polar ice (ah,
but this adds to the liftoff mass; a handy field of comet ice already in
orbit?), or bio-ceramic heat tiles that could be generated, or maybe the
inhumi can become "gaseous" like movie vampires (at which point maybe they
could play with their own density for smooth, slow re-entries?).  These are
all just playful thoughts toward the landing side: the problems of lift-off
seem a tad more difficult.  (Vernean supercannon?)

The gravity tide created by the close encounter is enough to raise huge
tides (obviously: even puny Luna raises tides around here).  Given a really
high mountain (Mount Everest) as the launch pad and the gravity assist of
the other world swinging into the sky, I wonder how low the escape velocity
(of a 1 g world) could possibly become?  That is, I wonder if a Blue/Green
"Lagrange Point" would dip deep into the world's atmosphere . . .

No, no of course not.  But where would the L-point be at closest conjuction?

=mantis=



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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:47:47 

I'm about 1/4th way through OBW looking for clues to why Sinew and Horn hate
each other, as well as investigating the possibility that Sinew is an inhumi
(as I laid out in more detail in a previous post).

p.19 - Hoof says "Sinew's here too" Did Horn get the needler because Sinew
was there or the men in boat? I think Sinew.

p.20 - Horn already dreads Sinew. Wants him to be away from their home
often.
Sinew sneered when asked to use the telescope? (Only seems to have respect
for weapon technology.  Why?  Because of beastlike/hunter nature?)
Sinew could never sharpen a knife properly? (For such a hunter??) Nettle
did it for him. Although he (Sinew) pretended he could.

Not being able to sharpen a knife but pretending he could sounds inhumi-ish.

p.22 - Sinew carried out all the chairs
p.26 - Sinew supplied the roast
p.27 - I've always been gentle with you for your mother's sake (Horn to
Sinew).
Although I loved him (Sinew) I did not like him. Not then, although things
were different on Green. Nor did he like me, I feel certain.
I gave Sinew who had always eaten like fire in good times and bad a thick
slice with plenty of gristle.

From these passages the idea I am toying with is that Sinew hunts animals,
drains the blood to feed himself and brings the meat to Horn and the rest of
the family.  This would explain Sinew's beastlike nature.

p.29 He titled his chair back against the wall, something that always
annoyed me.
Sinew came to his brother's defense surprising and pleasing me.
p.30 - at reference to chems Sinew thumps down chair??
Sinew used a bow???

The reference to Sinew using a bow and one that follows about making a boat
make me wonder if Sinew could be an inhumi/human crossbreed??
Characteristics of both.  I'm still wondering if Krait's mother took some
part of Sinew's *soul* which she imbued to Krait but also imparted something
to him (inhumi nature??).

p.32 - Sinew upset about conjuction coming

This passage doesn't sound very inhumi-ish.  Unless it's dreading what other
inhumi could do to his family.

p.34 - Horn envies Sinews energy and dexterity.
Promises meant very little to Sinew as I had reason to know.

I assume this has to do with Sinew's dissertion on Green.  Did Sinew ever
promise Horn anything??  Helping him get to the whorl?  Helping him on
Green??  I don't recall any mention of a promise.  Merely Sinew suddenly
fighting beside his father on the lander and on Green.  Did Horn assume this
was a promise?

p.35 - Sinew so close can feel breath on me.

Have we had any references to inhumi actually breathing?  Or have I just
assumed they do?

p.36 - He loped beside me like an ill bred dog.
I laughed, pretending a warmth of feeling that I did not feel.

p.37 - Horn offers needler. Sinew rejects. I recalled no argument of mine
had ever changed his mind. Sinew takes needler so Horn won't throw it away.

Does Sinew reject because he can't use a needler.  If he is some type of
human/inhumi crossbred can he handle tools better than inhumi but not as
good as other humans?

p.38 - Strangers. Visitors. Very plausible ones sometimes

Did Horn and Nettle invite Krait's mother in and feel guilty about it?  I
think others have already speculated that here.

p.41 - For so many years I feared that he would try to murder me, but in the
end it was I who would have murdered him.

Because of his betrayal on Green?  I still want to get to the bottom of why
Horn thinks Sinew hates him so much and why Horn has such enmity towards
Sinew.

p.42 - Sinew resembles Horn. Devilish??

Other's quotes this line previously.  Inhumi quality of mimicking?

Horn is jealous of Nettle's love for Sinew. He had already taken her from
me.

This line makes me think of an old George C. Scott movie "The Savage Is
Loose" (1974).  Where a man, his wife and their child are isolated on an
island.  The son and father start out very close friends.  As the child
grows and develops sexual desires he begins to compete with the father for
the mother's affections.  I'm not suggesting any incestuous feelings between
Sinew and Nettle.  The line in OBW does suggest a more normal rivalry
between a growing father and son.  But what could drive it to such levels of
hatred.  Merely Horn jealous of a baby stealing his wife's attention?  I
doubt it is the case here.

p. 56 - Try to find an honest man anywhere who would willingly say that
Sinew's moral development ever benefited from anything. He was brave on
Green, at least, and loyal for a time.

p.73 - Sinew will build a boat.  It will be good that he watch it grow under
his hands.


While pursuing this line of thought I came across other lines that raised
questions for me.  Some of the following are just comments.

p.39  Why would accepting Morrow's boat have resulted in a "serious loss" ??

p.56 - I know better now, of course.
About the gods.  Because he is Pas/Silk/Horn??  Other's have mentioned this
reference.

p.57 - Remora reference to gods of whorl preventing gods of Blue from
scourge - ing.

The gods of whorl protecting Blue worshippers?  I think the gods definitely
have a presence on Blue.  Not just Scylla.

p.59-62 - Prayed to Pas, Scylla & Outsider.  Then leatherskin (6 legs)
grasps boat.  Possessed by Scylla?
Once again others have already mentioned this ref.

p.65 - Horn wishes for a daughter or two.   Interesting foreshadow of Fava
and Jahlee?
Horn is 35, thick bodied and balding.  <others have mentioned>

p.74 - Horn dreamed that he had killed Silk.

By taking his body as Silk lay dying??

p.88 - What draws Mucor to the Mucor's Rock?  Not just her spirit but in
body she travels there and stays long times.  So Marble moves there with
her.

p.92-93 - Marble predicts Horn's death, rebirth.  Riding a beast w/3 horns.
He rode it when he was fatally wounded on Green.  Do we know what beast this
was that Horn rode on Green.  I don't recall reading it in IGJ.

p.95 Silk tells Mucor it will be dangerous for Horn to come.  It will
endanger Silk and Hyacinth.  He tells Mucor not to reveal his whereabouts.
Why is it dangerous?  Because the Travaguanti <sp?> don't want him to leave
the whorl?  Why is it dangerous to Hyacinth?  Because they use her as
blackmail to keep Silk from running off?  Is that what finally caused
Hyacinth to die?  Because Silk had decided to go to Blue?

p.101 How did Marble lie to Hammerstone??  So bad that he would want to kill
her.  They never completed their daughter?  I know I'm foggy on this but I
thought they did complete their daughter (Olivine)??  Am I having another
Alzheimer's moment?

Well that's as far as I've gotten.  Will post more later.


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: ansible@cix.co.uk (David Langford)
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n034
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:44 +0100 (BST)


"Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Judging by the danger and said low success rate, I think that 
> inhumu must be able to obtain enough blood and be able to breed on both 
> plants.

This is something that Wolfe briefly discussed when answering questions 
from this list back in 1997:

"[...]  the inhumi. They are fundamentally from Green, which is where they 
can reproduce ... on Blue they are tourists."

Dave

David Langford
ansible@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/

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From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" <fqgouvea@colby.edu>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:42:15 


One thing that these quotes suggest is that (at the beginning, at least)
there is more enmity on Horn's part than on Sinew's. Horn depicts himself
as a father who just won't give his son a chance, who already knows before
the test comes that Sinew will fail. This might be based on past
experience; in fact, Horn intimates to us that it is. But it's hard to see
how Sinew could have earned back his father's friendship and confidence
given this attitude on Horn's side. So I am under the impression that this
hatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level. But why?

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
==========================================================

What garlic is to food, insanity is to art.



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From: "Urash, Tom" <turash@firstam.com>
Subject: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:16:23 

Having just received IGJ I just can't help myself. The cover sucks! As does
OBW's, imltho. Shadow was the first Wolfe book I ever bought: an impulse buy
spurred by the Maitz cover, and, Jesus MacGod!, am I ever grateful. Now,
like most you, I can't get enough. That first purchase was twenty some odd
years ago, and I'd never even heard of Gene Wolfe at the time. The young man
I was then, or so I surmise, wouldn't take a second glance at either of the
first two volumes of Short Sun based on the covers. I live in Texas and the
artist who paints the Short Sun covers reminds me of the myriad white Blues
guitarists in this state who, not uncommonly, are technically quite
proficient but lack that special something -- soul? -- that so many Black
Blues artists seem to evoke so effortlessly. Or, like Twain is reputed to
have told his wife upon her trying to shame his habitual swearing by doing a
little swearing of her own, "... you have the words, honey, but you don't
have the music." 

It says more about me than Wolfe, but I just hate the idea that he could
have been on board with the decision to use those covers. I'd rather imagine
some sort of evildoings that left him no choice but capitulate in the
matter. 

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:46:11 

Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:
> 
> One thing that these quotes suggest is that (at the beginning, at least)
> there is more enmity on Horn's part than on Sinew's. [snip] So I am under the impression that this
> hatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level. But why?

That's my impression too.  According to IGJ, the extreme poverty Horn
and Nettle underwent during their first years on Blue was caused partly
by Nettle's being pregnant with Sinew and later having to feed him.  I
once suggested (in connection with a speculation as to the Secret, which
I won't repeat), that this may have led Horn to consciously or
unconsciously wish Sinew dead.  Even if my speculation as to the Secret
is wrong, my guess at Horn's feelings may be right, and Horn's guilt at
these feelings may unconsciously lead him to ascribe his own hostility
to Sinew.

--Adam

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n034
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:16:30 

ansible@cix.co.uk (David Langford) scribbed:

>"Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Judging by the danger and said low success rate, I think that
>> inhumu must be able to obtain enough blood and be able to breed on both
>> plants.
>
>This is something that Wolfe briefly discussed when answering questions
>from this list back in 1997:
>
>"[...]  the inhumi. They are fundamentally from Green, which is where they
>can reproduce ... on Blue they are tourists."

Further evidence of no Blue breeding.

OBW p.126

"Would it be effective for us to dig up one of the recent inhumations and
release him to warn the others?  The thought recurs.
    If the inhumas' eggs hatched in our climate, would not our human kind
become extinct?  What tricks Nature plays!  If they are natural creatures at
all.
    But they surely are.  Natural creatures native to Green.  Why would the
Neighbors create something so malign?"

Does this imply the eggs can be produced on Blue but will not hatch?


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Ian Smith" <iancsmith@4unet.co.uk>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Why Sinew isn't Krait
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:11:56 +0100

I really like this idea Dennis, but if it is true it means that the narrator
must be SERIOUSLY deluded. I can see where you get the idea however, and
there is certainly something up because Wolfe is so darn vague.  As far as I
can see, Sinew & Krait never seem to have a conversation in OBW, and
references to situations where they are both present are very  sketchy
indeed.  The more I look for evidence one way or the other, the more I find
amibiguous passages.
For example, In OBW (p354):

[Horn] "It's almost as if they'd [people of Pajaracou] been waiting for us,
isn't it?"
[Sinew] "You think so?"..."Why should they?"
[Horn] "Because there are three of us"
[Sinew] "Four, with Krait"
[Horn] "Exactly, four, if you count Krait, and three if you don't"

Hmm.  No comment.

It's clear from the end of OBW that the narrator believes Sinew to be alive
and Krait to be dead (e.g. p366).  Horn tells Seawrack that "He's [Krait]
actually quite a bit younger than my son Sinew" (OBW, p. 329).  Oh
ambiguity!  When Sinew shows up, later on the same page, Seawrack reacted to
his appearance "As if she had known him all her life".

But here's some strong evidence against (I think)....

p.331 Sinew used Horn's needler a lot before it was stolen
p.334 Sinew eats smoked meat (BUT p.340 Sinew chokes and coughs, saying the
meat is good "but it takes a lot of chewing")
p.335 Horn suggests that Sinew remains in Pajaracou to look after Seawrack,
whilst he and Krait board the lander.

And finally (this is the killer)

"The inhumi had barricaded themselves in the nose, Krait and the rest.  We
had to fight the ones who still believed...if only Sinew had stayed with
Seawrack as I had told him, I would have let the others fight, taking no
part.  He was there and would know, so I played General Mint for an audience
of one, kicking off and yelling and hurtliong toward them, yelling for him
[Sinew] and the others to follow me..." (OBW p.380).

It's not totally conclusive, but it's enough for me.  I've never known Wolfe
to be quite THAT misleading.

Oh, and Hammerstone is mad at Marble because she pretended to be his long
lost sweetheart Maggie so he would marry her.

Ian


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Why Sinew isn't Krait
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:42:27 

Ian I have to agree with you.  I am abandoning my theory that Sinew and
Krait might be the same.  I'm still sure we don't know the entire story
behind their duality but it is not that Krait is Sinew.

The passage that finally convinces besides the Lander sequence at the end of
Blue and the death of Krait on Green is the following.

OBW p.144  Sinew made a sketch that the smith used to produce Sinew's blade.

I don't believe Horn would have any reason to lie about that and an inhumi
could not draw.



Some discussion has been going on concerning the inhumi's crossings during
conjunction.  Came across this passage today

OBW p.126  "A few of you seem to think that since the inhumi cross the abyss
at conjunction they must leave before conjunction is past," I said.  "Why
should they, when there are so many of us here, so much blood for them?  I
tell you that though some who have tarried here for years will leave as the
whorls conjoin, returning to Green to breed, most will remain.  Do you doubt
me?"


Read several strange passages today.

p.123-146 The Thing On The Green Plain, chapter.  Did the mother's song
transport Babbie and Horn to Green?  Or even some other planet?

I was beginning to think that Horn's entire encounter with Seawrack, the
Neighbor, the pit etc. had happened on Green in an astral visit until I
reread the section where Wijzer encountered Horn, Seawrack and Babbie.


The other strange passage (I did not remember but seemed more significant on
rereading knowing more about the neighbors) is

p. 161-2 The immortal Neighbor??  What do you think of this strange
neighbor??

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Jeffrey Meyers <jeffmeyers@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n035
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:34:14 

Endymion9 wrote:

> OBW p.126
> 
> "Would it be effective for us to dig up one of the recent inhumations and
> release him to warn the others?  The thought recurs.
> If the inhumas' eggs hatched in our climate, would not our human kind
> become extinct?  What tricks Nature plays!  If they are natural creatures at
> all.
> But they surely are.  Natural creatures native to Green.  Why would the
> Neighbors create something so malign?"

Endymion9's quotation of this passage in support of the fact that the inhumi
do not breed on Blue reminded me of a thought I had after reading this
passage again the other night.  I don't remember anyone on the list
discussing this.  Are the inhumi the Neighbors' creation?  It's possible.
They (the Neighbors and the inhumi) don't seem to have been living side by
side for ages.  Rather, it seems as if the Neighbors' thriving civilization
was brought down by the inhumi.  Where did they come from?  Did they arrive
from some other planet?  Or are they the result of the experimentation of
the Neighbors, a failed attempt at some sort of biological experiment?  Are
the inhumi the curse on the technilogical hubris of the Neighbors?  Someone
may shoot this down immediately, but I don't remember anything in OBW or IGJ
that would rule it out.  The fact that Horn brings it up and then rules it
out simply on moral grounds seems to indicate that it is possible.  The
Neighbors may not have created the inhumi "so malign", but they may have
*become* so.

Patera Bunny


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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:59 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200009021918.MAA02421@lists1.best.com>
A couple comments:
        1) I thought the _New Sun_ covers were abominable. But this made 
no difference.
        2) I thought the _design_ of the _Short Sun_ covers was 
philistine, and destroyed any virtues the covers might possess.
        3) I think Jim Burns usually does very well with books he 
illustrates, and that these covers--if the art can be abstracted from the 
design of the whole--are meritorious but failed attempts at doing 
illuminations of a text of quite extraordinary visual difficulty. None of 
us on this list seems really to know what any of the main characters in 
the book look light at any one moment. Fixing this sort of thing into a 
visual representation is something Jim was not able to do. He was probably 
the wrong kind of artist for the job, though he is unusual in the fact he 
actually reads the ms he's illustrating, with great care. But find the 
right artist. The world of _Short Sun_ is immensely less fixable than the 
world of its predecessors, all of which have execrable art. Is there any 
_good_ Gene Wolfe visual?

Best,
John C


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From: Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl>
Subject: Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:13:30 +0200

John Clute wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <200009021918.MAA02421@lists1.best.com>
> A couple comments:
>         1) I thought the _New Sun_ covers were abominable. But this made
> no difference.
>         2) I thought the _design_ of the _Short Sun_ covers was
> philistine, and destroyed any virtues the covers might possess.
>         3) I think Jim Burns usually does very well with books he
> illustrates, and that these covers--if the art can be abstracted from the
> design of the whole--are meritorious but failed attempts at doing
> illuminations of a text of quite extraordinary visual difficulty. None of
> us on this list seems really to know what any of the main characters in
> the book look light at any one moment. Fixing this sort of thing into a
> visual representation is something Jim was not able to do. He was probably
> the wrong kind of artist for the job, though he is unusual in the fact he
> actually reads the ms he's illustrating, with great care. But find the
> right artist. The world of _Short Sun_ is immensely less fixable than the
> world of its predecessors, all of which have execrable art. Is there any
> _good_ Gene Wolfe visual?
> 
> Best,
> John C
> 

Do you refer to the Bruce Pennington covers of the New Sun books, John,
as used on the UK editions (paperback at least)? It's strange because
for me these absolutely define how I see the world of the New Sun. 
Neither the Don Maitz (US hardcover editions, I think) or the later
UK covers seemed to hit the right note. Funny things, covers...

Al


-- 
.

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Horn's astral Journey to Nettle
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:05:09 

In an earlier post I asked why Horn never made an astral journey to visit
Nettle.  I obviously had forgotten this passage from OBW.

p.203
Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man
with a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me...
He touched my forehead with something he held, an the pit vanished.
I was standing in Nettle's kitchen...

"Come with me," I told her...

...tried to lead her back to the pit in which I lay.  She stared at me then
as if I were some horror from the grave, and screamed.  I can never forget
that scream.


Was Horn trying to lead Nettle into death with him?  Is this why Horn has
never tried to return to Nettle in an astral trip again?  Her reaction.
Wasn't there some conjecture as to whether an inhumi had to be present for
an astral trip to take place?  Looks like a neighbor will do also, unless
Krait was along on this journey but hidden ( I doubt it).

The more I think of the Neighbor/Inhumi relationship I think that they might
be a creation of the Neighbors.  When the neighbor touches Horn is he doing
the same type manipulation on Horn?  Creating an inhumi? or something else?
out of him?

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Blue Breeders II
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:56:35 

Still mulling over the idea that the inhumi might be able to breed on Blue,
my latest thoughts being triggered by the following:

<"Would it be effective for us to dig up one of the recent inhumations and
release him to warn the others?  The thought recurs.
If the inhumas' eggs hatched in our climate, would not our human kind become
extinct?  What tricks Nature plays!  If they are natural creatures at all.>

The idea that Blue-breeding inhumi would soon wipe out their food supply
seems contradicted by two notions, however:

(One) The inhumi would use their new intelligence to prevent this from
happening, perhaps setting up gulags where penned-up humans could be
live-bled, as well as bred (the same way they apparently have on Green).

(Two) According to Jahlee, the inhumi "drink blood. Human blood, mostly. We
don't kill you, though. At least very often."

So: is it possible that the inhumi aren't really that dangerous--that while,
yes, they do suck your blood and appropriate elements of your persona, they
don't typically drain enough to kill, except in the young, the old and the
infirm? Horn compares the inhumi to leeches over and over again, but as far
as bloodsuckers go, leeches are relatively benign.

Not that I wouldn't be a little bit creeped out to wake up and find a giant
alien leech lapping up my life force (unless, of course, she maybe looked
like Uma Thurman).

Robert Borski







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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) A fishy incident from OBW
Date: 4 Sep 2000 13:36:32 

When Marble sends Horn down to the boat for water in OBW, he's surprised to find fish waiting upon a rock; then even more surprised when one escapes only to return, leaping out of the water onto the stone.  Horn hints that he has some idea of what's going on, but not once does he mention what I thought at first was the obvious explanation; namely, that Mucor has taken over the fish and compelled them to jump from water to stone.  But then I realized Mucor is journeying to the Whorl in search of Silk at the time, so she can't be responsible (unless her mind can be in two places at once [or 3, I guess, since she remains conscious in her own body during her travels]).  So that seems to leave the Mother (who I'm beginning to think is at least partly Scylla (an aside to Mr. Borski -- I'm also coming more around to a kind of compromise point of view with you; that is, Oreb seems to have been the vehicle by which Scylla has traveled to Blue.  I wonder if this means that anyone who ha!
!
s witness a theophany on the Whorl carries engrams of the god or goddess manifesting at the time, engrams which can be "awakened" later?).  Anyway, why would the Mother offer up these fish?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I don't understand why Scylla would do it either.  Can anybody help clarify this episode for me?

Falcon

www.sff.net/people/stilskin
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From: jclute@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Clute)
Subject: Re: (whorl) BEATING AN EIGHT-LEGGED HORSE
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:15 +0100 (BST)

In-Reply-To: <200009041114.EAA10036@lists1.best.com>
Al,
        I was referring to the US hardbacks, which is how I encountered 
the Book initially. I should retract the fullness of my utterance (I was 
writing late at night, not my best time), as I'm not very familiar with 
reprint editions, and I know some of the UK art differs from the US (some 
I think is the same). Pennington might well have done something memorable 
for me--I'll give the editions a look, thanks.

Best,
John


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) More questions while rereading OBW
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:19:06 

p.224 Horn dreams "wrapping a slimy tentacle around my neck, he having
become Scylla."  Oreb.  In Oreb's voice she demanded I take her to the Blue
mainframe.

Is there a Blue mainframe?  What would it be like?   So far we have seen the
Neighbors and inhumi portrayed as spiritual creatures and very little of
their technology?  Krait made mention to Horn that the inhumi were a vastly
older race than humans and that they had seen things humans could not even
imagine or some similar quote.

p.265 The Neighbors house didn't like Borsat?  Forced him to leave?

More Neighbor technology at work??
p.238  Seawrack see's the inhumi differently?  She can't hear him sometimes
at all??
Is this some sort of inhumi technology reference??


p.224 Krait's death scene.  Dissolves into a fetid liquid similar to the one
in the sewers that Horn opened.

Were there inhumi dead as well as human slave dead in that sewer?

Concerning Horn's change after the pit and the Neighbor touched his forehead
with something

p.228-9  Horn's perception has changed "to this day"  He sees the sea
differently.  Because of the neighbor's touch?
Now he can see through inhumi illusions?  He could see from other's
perspectives.
p.230  Is Seawrack really going back as she was or can Horn just see her
true nature now (coiled legs?)

And this section concerns "how did the inhumi destroy the Neighbors??"

p.262 inhumi fear Neighbors?  But I thought the inhumi destroyed the
Neighbors?  This implies it was NOT by taking their blood.  How else could
the inhumi destroy them?
p. 263  Neighbors kill inhumu

Krait seemed to have no desire to go and attempt to feed off the Neighbors.
So they obviously have some defense against inhumi.  Then I still wonder
what it means to be destroyed by them?  Did the Neighbors create the inhumi
and the inhumi wiped out their food source?

Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: Tim Boolos <timboolos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:55:26 


--- Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:
> > 
> > One thing that these quotes suggest is that (at
> the beginning, at least)
> > there is more enmity on Horn's part than on
> Sinew's. [snip] So I am under the impression that
> this
> > hatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level.
> But why?
> 
> That's my impression too.  [ *snip* ] my guess at
Horn's feelings may be right,
> and Horn's guilt at
> these feelings may unconsciously lead him to ascribe
> his own hostility
> to Sinew.
> 
> --Adam
> 

I wonder if this isn't part of the difficulties
Horn/Silk is having with the merger, so to speak. 
I've posted before how the Horn side of the merged
entity would be let down over Silk's failings, both
real and inmagined (not least of which would be his
{Silk's} running after Hyacinth at the end of EfLS.) 
Could this have a tint of Silk's disappointment with
the way Horn treated Sinew growing up?

Knowing that the narrator is part of the story and his
purposes in writing the narrative are also part of the
story I have to question why this shows up so often in
OBW and only to a lesser degree in IGJ.  Could the
purpose of the narrator be changing as the narrative
progresses.  Wolfe has done this before with Soldier
of Arete where Latro clearly (we learn at the end from
Pindaros) had more in mind than just setting down his
day to day events.  My theory remains that the
Horn/Silk merged entity is using the narrative of
tBoTSS (amoung other things) to work out its identity
and that the motives and purposes behind the work in
progress are changing as we move along.

Emrys

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Scylla (wet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:21:03 

Here are a few more plot-points to my Mother-as-Scylla hypothesis.

In addition to the previous examples I cited where Horn directly or
indirectly compared the two, let me note the following, wherein Horn
compares the Mother to the still-to-be-met Quadrifons: "And if Quadrifons
(whose sign of the crossroads may well have become Pas's sign of addition)
was in the final reckoning none other than the Outsider--which now seems
certain to me--might not the Mother be Scylla as well?"

[Sidenote to Nick Gevers: I'll be very surprised if Quadrifons--he of the
four faces--turns out to be a true physical manifestation of the Outsider,
but wonder what the inhabitants of the Whorl might think of our old friend,
Ossipago.]

Horn also seems to believe in the megatherian concept of godliness: "It may
be that our gods did not come among us except by enlightenment and
possession because they were too large to do so; even the godlings that they
send among the people now are, for the most part, immense."

Compare this then to Seawrack's description of the Mother's physical
dimensions:

*****

"The underwater woman taught me to sing like that. I wish I could forget
her, too."

"Your Mother?" I asked.

"She wasn't my mother."

"'The Mother.' You called her that."

"She wanted me to. I was on a big boat, and I remember a woman who talked to
me, and carried me sometimes. I think that was my mother.

"After that, there was only the underwater woman. She doesn't look like a
woman unless she makes part of herself a woman.

"She's another shape, vey big. But she is one. She told me to call her
Mother, and I did."

*****

Seawrack later reflects on her former sleeping habitats. "The water was
always warm and still in them, with Mother's smell in it. I'd curl up and go
to sleep, knowing that Mother was so big nothing frightened her, and that
most of the dangerous things and people were afraid of her."

This being of immense size sounds very much to me like Megatherian Scylla,
the "sea monster of the Red Sun Whorl," who's taken refuge from Pas on Blue.
(Echidna is dead, we're told; so perhaps are Scylla's brothers and sisters.)

Finally, there is this from Oreb, but first I'd like to thank Endymion for
providing me with an additional item in my argument that Scylla is riding
Oreb, although I wish you'd quoted more (to wit: "Dreamt that Oreb was back.
Very strange. I was in the Sun Street Quarter again, made inexpressably sad
by its devastation. I sent Pig away as I actually did there, with Oreb for a
guide; but at the last moment I could not bear to be parted from him and
called him back. He returned and lit upon my shoulder, wrapping a slimy
tentacle around my neck, he having become Scylla. In Oreb's voice she
demanded that I take her to the Blue Mainframe.") Incanto at this point has
just said goodbye to the Neighbors, asking as his final question "Do you
know about Seawrack and her mother?" and this sets Oreb to squawking:

*****

"Wet god? Wet god?" Oreb cried plaintively after them. Did he mean the
Mother? Or Scylla, who haunts my dreams? I have questioned him, but he
refuses to answer or contradicts himself. Possibly he meant both.

*****

The "contradicts himself" is interesting. Could Oreb be saying yes to
Incanto's question of "Do you mean the Mother?" _and_ to the followup, "Or
do you mean Scylla?"

I believe so --- because the Mother and Scylla are one and the same.

Robert Borski




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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) vampires rocket from Green to Blue
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:25:08 

At 12:46 PM 9/1/00 -0700, Michael wrote:
>I was also toying with making ablative re-entry shields from polar ice (ah,
>but this adds to the liftoff mass; a handy field of comet ice already in
>orbit?), or bio-ceramic heat tiles that could be generated, or maybe the
>inhumi can become "gaseous" like movie vampires (at which point maybe they
>could play with their own density for smooth, slow re-entries?).  These are
>all just playful thoughts toward the landing side: the problems of lift-off
>seem a tad more difficult.  (Vernean supercannon?)

We know the inhumi can fly on Blue. If the inhumi can spread themselves
thin enough to drift down in the atmosphere of Blue, then they don't need
heat shielding. Our space vehicles need serious heat shielding because on
re-entry they are basically falling through atmosphere, not flying or
gliding. 

One engineer I know described the Space Shuttle's reentry as being "as
graceful as a falling brick". Compare this to the flight of a low-orbit
airplane like the U-2--the U-2 didn't have much in the way of heat
shielding, because its descent was controlled flight. 

I agree that the problem of launch from Green is by far the more puzzling,
unless the inhumi can somehow teleport (because of residual Neighbor blood
making distance less certain?). 

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: stilskin@sff.net
Subject: (whorl) The passage quoted by Endymion9
Date: 5 Sep 2000 11:51:22 

I've been pondering this passage myself lately . . . .  The first thing I thought of when I read it was that Horn had been touched by the Claw of the Conciliator.  Perhaps another link to the New Sun?

Falcon

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From: David Wells <ADW@ovum.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Horn's astral Journey to Nettle
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:26:03 +0100

From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:05:09 -0500

>In an earlier post I asked why Horn never made an astral journey to visit
>Nettle.  I obviously had forgotten this passage from OBW.

>p.203
>Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seemed to me that a man
>with a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me...
>He touched my forehead with something he held, an the pit vanished.
>I was standing in Nettle's kitchen...

>"Come with me," I told her...

>...tried to lead her back to the pit in which I lay.  She stared at me then
>as if I were some horror from the grave, and screamed.  I can never forget
>that scream.

>Was Horn trying to lead Nettle into death with him?  Is this why Horn has
>never tried to return to Nettle in an astral trip again?

Interesting.
But if Horn is astrally-journeying in the same sense that he does
in IGJ, you would expect him to appear to Nettle in her kitchen with
his "inner self exposed" - cf. the changes of appearance of Horn, Oreb
and the inhumi when they astrally travel.

Given that Horn's soul is in torment in the pit, he may appear to Nettle
to be in less than the best of health (I can't help thinking of the "return
of the friend" in An American Werewolf in London ;-).

Which Nettle might well find somewhat scary.

All just speculation, though.

old newt

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis@sirius.com>
Subject: (whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:48:45 

wombat wrote:
>We know the inhumi can fly on Blue. If the inhumi can spread themselves
>thin enough to drift down in the atmosphere of Blue, then they don't need
>heat shielding. Our space vehicles need serious heat shielding because on
>re-entry they are basically falling through atmosphere, not flying or
>gliding.
>
>One engineer I know described the Space Shuttle's reentry as being "as
>graceful as a falling brick". Compare this to the flight of a low-orbit
>airplane like the U-2--the U-2 didn't have much in the way of heat
>shielding, because its descent was controlled flight.
>
>I agree that the problem of launch from Green is by far the more puzzling,
>unless the inhumi can somehow teleport (because of residual Neighbor blood
>making distance less certain?).

Yay, we are on the same thought here: I was meaning to mention the limited
teleport option.  Limited to once in a while, spawning-run, short jaunts
from atmosphere to Lagrange Point.  (Trick here is to avoid vampires having
teleport on demand capability, which does not seem supported by the texts:
although it would give another infusion to alga's heresy that "Pike's
ghost" in the manteon really was Q himself; since the "aquastor" dissolve
could then be a teleportation effect.)  Then they "fly" across the
distance, exposed to vacuum, and do the long glide in.  (I hadn't even
thought to tie-in the Neighbors, with their clear and obvious
astral/teleport powers [Horn into Silk]; nevermind the seeming
teleport-link between Horn/Silk and an inhuma for all of his "astral
projection" jaunts.)

I was going to prep it by saying, "Look, when the undines of Urth say they
can swim through space and/or the corridors of time, we don't spend any
time working out the escape velocity, etc., because (while at first we
think they are speaking metaphorically and later, when we see that it is
real . . . ) we see it as technology so advanced that it is magic to us.
Some form of teleportation (through space) and/or time travel (itself
magic).  We don't argue about the possibly implied differences between
`walking' the corridors and `swimming' the corridors."

FWIW digression: The time-travel in Severian's narrative seems to have
elements of pseudo-momentum or pseudo-inertia involved: when the power
stops, the traveler doesn't necessarily stop immediately.  Hence in URTH
when Sev was leaving the deluge by `running' back into the far past, he
reached the endpoint (light of the white hole reaching Urth) and was
catapulted (a hundred years?) beyond, presumably by the pseudo-velocity of
his `running.'

Then I was going to say, "So while I'm toying with this in a light-hearted
fashion, I'm not really too concerned, myself, with the mechanics of it.
Not to criticize anybody who is pondering it more seriously."

(Then again, wombat: don't wings and lifting bodies have an atmospheric
limit?  That is, they have no value in a vacuum, and as the object comes
into the gravity well it picks up some speed before the atmosphere is
sufficiently thick enough to provide the lift?  I guess I'm saying there's
enough atmosphere for re-entry friction, but not enough for lift, until the
object gets to a certain critical level which is relatively deep into the
gravity well: but I'm just wondering around.)

=mantis=



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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Scylla (wet) & Re:The passage quoted by Endymion9
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:10:22 

Robert Borski presented:
>because the Mother and Scylla are one and the same.

Robert.  Glad you enjoyed the quote.  I found it a particularly interesting
one also.

I agree for all the reasons you mentioned.  I do believe that The Mother
existed and Scylla has possessed her/overtaken her though.  Makes me wonder
if the Blue "gods" can resist the Whorl "gods" at all.  And I still want to
know where the Neighbors technology devices (mainframe?) are hidden.  Right
out in the open?  The altars?


OBW p.269 The neighbor says that The Mother is one of the goddesses names.
Is the neighbor referring to Scylla as another name.

Falcon contributed:
>The first thing I thought of when I read it was that Horn had been touched
by the Claw of the Conciliator.

Wow.  Interesting conjecture.  It's been so long since I last reread TBONS
what powers did the Claw give Severian.
I know raising the dead (Dorcas), but did it change his perspective the way
Horn has been affected?

I finally finished rereading OBW.  Here are my final questions thoughts on
this pass.

p.270  The neighbors did leave by choice, finding a better home.  They were
not all destroyed.
I thought someone conjectured that they might have all been wiped out by the
inhumi.

"Some of you call the place where we are now the Neighbor Whorl."
Who knows of this whorl??  Who are the some of you??

p.271  Nearly all the neighbors have left, but not all.
I had wondered if all neighbors were astral.  Seems not.

p.272  "You did not give us your own name, you who have been every being of
your kind."  <Is this just a reference to Horn's representing all humans on
Blue?>

p.276  Krait's overdeveloped sense of humor.  The neighbors are notorious
for theirs.  Was Krait feeding on a Neighbor right before he displayed this
sense of humor that aggravated Horn?

p.282  "And now good night, Nettle my own darling.  My night thoughts cycle
your bed, glowing but invisible, to observe and to protect you."  Is this
just sweet thoughts or does Horn make astral journeys when Nettle is asleep
and won't observe him observing her?

p308 Why did Krait want Seawrack on the lander?

p.316 Locking (what) around inhuma's neck (Jahlee) imprisons her? White Gold
like
the seawrack's ring?

p.330 If Sinew showed up Horn would have his guards behead him but could
not watch.

If Seawrack not around he would have shot him. (This is before Green
betrayal??).

P.331 Sinew claims to have used the needler a lot before he lost it. We
have only his word for that and the fact that Horn gave it to him thinking
he could use it.

p.333 Seawrack. "You don't look very much like your father." Seawrack
always lies? Or playing up to Sinew. Sinew liked the comment.

p.334 Sinew won't tell Horn what the other stuff he traded the boat for.
"It doesn't matter. It's gone now."

Any conjectures as to what it was??

p.335 Sinew "I knew you didn't want me as soon as I saw you. Only I didn't
think you'd give her (Seawrack) up to get rid of me."
Did Horn really want to save Sinew (and Seawrack) or dump them?

p.336 Seawrack speaks like a minor god??

p.337 Sinew "He doesn't think I'm anybody either." "Yes he does!" "You
got it exactly backwards. No wonder you're his son."
"It's the other part he doesn't like, the thingness. You try to be less of
a person and more of a thing, because you think that's what he wants, but
it's really the other way."

Sinew tries to act on more of his thingness (inhumi-ness??). He thinks Horn
wants this? Typical generation gap? That's why Horn hates him, it reminds
him he has inhumi-ness in him?? Is that why Horn says the best part of his
life ended at the pit, because Horn is now partly what he hates?
Inhumi-ness after the Neighbor's touch?

p.341 Sinew called softly, "Mucor? Mucor?" I had never realized until
then how much his voice resembled Krait's. (Perhaps I should have written,
how very near Krait's it came in certain moods)."

When Sinew was acting on his "thingness"?

Seawrack touched my knee and whispered, "He sounds just like you."

p.344 Krait who loved me and wanted so desperately for me to love him, can
never have imagined that he was dooming me.
(By telling the secret). Krait longs for this because of what he took from
Sinew

p.360 Horn can't tell for sure if the one he argues with is inhumi or not.
The Neighbor sight (Claw's effect?) has definitely left him.

p. 364 Horn was headed for home with Evensong to Nettle. What detoured
him??  I know when I reread IGJ next, it will probably be something obvious
I have forgotten already.

p.373 "Father...?Horn...?"
I sat up, thinking in a confused way that Sinew had become Krait, or Krait
Sinew.
p.374 three slaves operated the lander for the inhumi
the inhumi had needlers. (So inhumi can use needlers, just not slug guns).

p.379 Horn dreams of Olivine. She tells him this is where you lived with
Hyacinth. Hyacinth was 14 or 15 and was terribly ill and would die soon.
For a long time all I could think was that Hyacinth was dead.

The Hyacinth Silk met was much older than 14 or 15?? Was she a chem
reproduction of the dead Hy or a clone?
I think someone earlier speculated this.

There are several references in the last 40 pages or so of Horn forgiving
Sinew and longing to see him again.  Of his love for Sinew breaking through.
That was nice to see after so much hatred most of the book.


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Oddz, Endz
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:39:44 

First things first, a reader alert: our own mantis reviews IN GREEN'S
JUNGLES in the latest issue of THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION
(Sept., #145). As befits the only man I know who's crazy enough to attempt
to write a capsule history of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in about as many
sentences as it has chapters, the review is very succinct.

Secondly, I'd like to respond to the following quote from Endymion:

<OBW p.269 The neighbor says that The Mother is one of the goddesses names.
Is the neighbor referring to Scylla as another name?>

Here's the actual text, however:

*****

Lamely, I finished. "Seawrack calls her the Mother. I mean the girl--the
young lady that I call Seawrack. I mean, she used to.

The Neighbor to my left said, "That is one of her names."

*****

I believe a valid alternate interpretation here is that the Neighbor is not
talking about the Mother, but "the young lady that I call Seawrack." That
is, he's validating Horn's approximate pronunciation of her real name --
whatever that is. (I still have no clue, but I'll figure it out.)

Earlier, however, that rumpled fellow asked this:

<When Marble sends Horn down to the boat for water in OBW, he's surprised to
find fish waiting upon a rock; then even more surprised when one escapes
only to return, leaping out of the water onto the stone.  Horn hints that he
has some idea of what's going on, but not once does he mention what I
thought at first was the obvious explanation; namely, that Mucor has taken
over the fish and compelled them to jump from water to stone.  But then I
realized Mucor is journeying to the Whorl in search of Silk at the time, so
she can't be responsible>

I speculated shortly after OBW came out that Seawrack is providing the fish,
and lately that both she and Mucor are special talents of the Silk ilk.
Check the archives for further details.

And lastly I have a question for either mantis or Wombat: if
micrometeorites, which have very little mass or surface area, burn out
rather brightly when they hit earth's atmosphere, why wouldn't the inhumi?
We do know they can squeeze through under doorcracks, I seem to remember,
but this seems somewhat at a remove from mantis' gaseous phase change. (And
I'm still not buying the escape velocity end-arounds you guys are positing.)

Also for mantis: where does the Whorl orbit in your opinion? Around Blue?
Green? Or some Lagrange point between (or outside?) the binary planet
system?

Robert Borski






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From: Alastair Reynolds <areynold@estsa2.estec.esa.nl>
Subject: Re: (whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:19:46 +0200

Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:
> 

> 
> (Then again, wombat: don't wings and lifting bodies have an atmospheric
> limit?  That is, they have no value in a vacuum, and as the object comes
> into the gravity well it picks up some speed before the atmosphere is
> sufficiently thick enough to provide the lift?  I guess I'm saying there's
> enough atmosphere for re-entry friction, but not enough for lift, until the
> object gets to a certain critical level which is relatively deep into the
> gravity well: but I'm just wondering around.)
> 
> =mantis=
>


No; you're right, Mantis - if the inhumi "fall" from the lagrange point
between
Green and Blue, then they're essentially going to hit Blue's atmosphere
with speed on the order of escape velocity. The only thing they can
modify,
assuming they don't have a way to slow down in vaccum (stolen PM modules
from the Trivigaunti fliers?) is their angle at which they brush the 
atmosphere. And even with the optimum approach angle (not too steep so
that they burn up, or too shallow so that they bounce off), there'll
still be an enormous amount of friction. Somehow or other the kinetic
energy they've accumulated during their fall has to be converted to
heat, and the only variable is whether this happens slowly, in a
controlled
way (like a space shuttle re-entry) or in a quick burn-up. Barbecued
inhumi, anyone?

Re: the orbital mechanics of Green/Blue - wasn't the best explanation,
as worked out by someone here, that they're analogous to our moon and
its small satellite partner Cruithne? It was pointed out that this
had been written up (in Nature I think) early enough for Wolfe
to have incorporated it into the series. Or was there some
fatal flaw in that idea?

Al

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From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@harmonixmusic.com>
Subject: (whorl) Seawrack
Date: 06 Sep 2000 09:56:34 

Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
don't remember encountering it before.  I ask because I'm currently
reading through ULYSSES and found it at the beginning of chapter 3:

  Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more,
  thought through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read,
  seaspawn and seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot.

-- 
                 Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org
Honest Bob CD now available! | http://www.dfan.org/honestbob/cd.html


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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph@earthlink.net>
Subject: (whorl) Orbital mechanics
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:40:40 

Alastair Reynolds wrote:
> Re: the orbital mechanics of Green/Blue - wasn't the best explanation,
> as worked out by someone here, that they're analogous to our moon and
> its small satellite partner Cruithne? It was pointed out that this
> had been written up (in Nature I think) early enough for Wolfe
> to have incorporated it into the series.
> 
I was the one who suggested Cruithne as relevant to the Blue/Green
question.  (A couple of clarifications: it's not Earth's moon but Earth
that Cruithne is a companion of; and it's not a satellite of Earth, but
rather shares Earth's orbit in a sense, although its actual orbit is a
good deal more complicated.)  I argued that something like Cruithne's
orbit would explain the data in OBW, including the indications that at
conjunction Green moves perceptibly (from Blue) with respect to the
fixed stars in the course of a night.  However, nobody else seemed to
agree about Green's movement, or indeed about Cruithne as a likely
model.  Or if they did, they didn't post it.

>  Or was there some fatal flaw in that idea?

Not that I recall; people just didn't go for it.

The problem with this stuff (one reason why I stopped working on it) is
that you're dealing not with what is possible or probable, but with what
Wolfe thought was possible or probable, and we have no way of knowing
that short of asking him.  (The same applies to the inhumi
transportation question.)

And Robert Borski wrote:
> Also for mantis: where does the Whorl orbit in your opinion? Around Blue?
> Green? Or some Lagrange point between (or outside?) the binary planet
> system?
> 
As I once posted, the fact that conjunction between Blue and Green
occurs only once every six years seems clearly to imply that Blue and
Green do not form a binary system, but orbit the Short Sun
independently; and this seems to be the consensus on the list, as well. 
As for the Whorl, the since its conjunctions with Blue are even rarer,
and it approaches less closely to Green at conjunction, I assumed that
it too orbited the Short Sun independently.  Do you have any reason for
thinking otherwise?

--Adam

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From: "Kevin J. Maroney" <kmaroney@ungames.com>
Subject: Re: (whorl) vampires make bootstrap lift off
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:18:11 

At 09:19 AM 9/6/00 +0200, Alastair wrote:
>No; you're right, Mantis - if the inhumi "fall" from the lagrange point
>between Green and Blue, then they're essentially going to hit Blue's
>atmosphere with speed on the order of escape velocity. 

Agreed. I've been assuming that they don't fall from that distance. There
are three basic possibilities, as I see it: 

The inhumi move from planet to planet via traditional ballistics, which
requires them to reach some high percentage of escape velocity from Green
and absorb that kinetic energy at Blue; 

The inhumi are under some sore of controlled flight for the entire trip
from Green to Blue and vice versa, but with an unknown mechanism; or 

That they teleport most of the distance via some gift from the Neighbors
and only fly within the atmospheres of the two planets. 

I'm actually most inclined to believe the third. I have a suspicion that
the Neighbors evolved on Blue, the inhumi on Green, and they only came into
contact with each other after the Neighbors tried to conquer Green,
relatively recently. The Neighbors do not perceive distance the way humans
do. The inhumi gained a great deal from the Neighbors, as Horn has; the
evidence in _Green_ is that some of that difference can be communicated to
humans and almost certainly to inhumi as well. 

This scenario also helps explain how Quetzal and his kindred came on to the
_Whorl_ despite its tremendous distance from Green. 

I don't think that the inhumi can teleport at will. Fava's surprise at
Incanto's ability demonstrates that. But I think they might be able to slip
from place to place. 


-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Seawrack
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:27:09 +0100

At 09:56 2000-09-06 -0400, Dan Schmidt wrote:
>Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
>don't remember encountering it before.

It isn't exactly common, but I think I've heard it before.
It isn't just seaweed, but specifically "seaweed case ashore in masses",
according to Merriam-Webster (http://www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/mw.cgi).
I think I knew about the "cast ashore" sense, but thought it was any kind
of wreckage ("wrack"), not just seaweed.

Anyway, it's plausible enough for Horn to have thought of it.

SBear.


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re:Seawrack
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:42:11 

Dan Schmidt pondered:

>Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
>don't remember encountering it before.  I ask because I'm currently
>reading through ULYSSES and found it at the beginning of chapter 3:
>
>  Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more,
>  thought through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read,
>  seaspawn and seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot.

I found several commentaries of this section of ULYSSES that labeled the
terms "seaspawn and seawrack" as the life cycle.  With seaspawn equating to
life/birth and seawrack equating to death.  Hmmm.

In the same commentaries I found the following:

19th-century poet Algernon Charles Swinburne called the sea "our mighty
mother."  ULYSSES had Algy as a character??  I've never read it, just going
by the commentaries.

Also found the following under herbal remedies:

Bladderwrack has been used as a remedy for high cholesterol and hardening of
the arteries, indigestion, excess weight, and insufficient thyroid, but its
efficacy has not been scientifically verified
Other names: Black-tang, Cutweed, Kelpware, Quercus marina, Seawrack

I doubt Wolfe was referring to the herbal uses <grin>.  It's funny how since
reading OBW Seawrack instantly makes me think of a gorgeous blond model-like
woman, while Bladderwrack would make me think of a sea hag.

And to Robert:  I agree that on p.269 of OBW the Neighbor could be referring
to either The Mother or Seawrack.  I thought of this as I wrote that
comment, but decided one way.


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) An O, Wow moment
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:37:20 

Dan Schmidt asked re Seawrack:

> Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
> don't remember encountering it before.  I ask because I'm currently
> reading through ULYSSES and found it at the beginning of chapter 3:
>
>   Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more,
>   thought through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read,
>   seaspawn and seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot.

So I looked in the OED and here is the earliest citation pasted in,
verbatim:

1551 Turner Herbal i. K iv, Alga..is commonly called in englyshe see
wrak.

O, Wow,
-alga



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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) An O, Wow moment
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:02:47 

At 11:37 PM -0400 9/6/00, akt@attglobal.net wrote:
>
>Dan Schmidt asked re Seawrack:
>
>>  Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
>>  don't remember encountering it before.  I ask because I'm currently
>>  reading through ULYSSES and found it at the beginning of chapter 3:
>>
>>    Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more,
>>    thought through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read,
>>    seaspawn and seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot.
>
>So I looked in the OED and here is the earliest citation pasted in,
>verbatim:
>
>1551 Turner Herbal i. K iv, Alga..is commonly called in englyshe see
>wrak.
>
>O, Wow,
>-alga

Wow, indeed! If you come across a hus, and it offers to shake your 
hand, *don't do it*. <g>



-- 
William Ansley

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From: matthew.malthouse@guardian.co.uk
Subject: Re: (whorl) Seawrack
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:08:25 +0100



On 06/09/2000 22:27:09 Peter Westlake wrote:

>At 09:56 2000-09-06 -0400, Dan Schmidt wrote:
>>Is this a common word?  It appears to be a synonym for seaweed, but I
>>don't remember encountering it before.
>
>It isn't exactly common, but I think I've heard it before.
>It isn't just seaweed, but specifically "seaweed case ashore in masses",
>according to Merriam-Webster (http://www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/mw.cgi).
>I think I knew about the "cast ashore" sense, but thought it was any kind
>of wreckage ("wrack"), not just seaweed.

OED

sea-wrack. Forms: see wrack.
1. pl. Property cast ashore by the sea. Obs.
1548 Reg. Mag. Sig. Scot. 61/1 Terras de Terbert, cum manerio, molendino et lie
sey-wrakis earundem.

2. a. collect. Seaweed, esp. any of the large coarse kinds cast up on the shore,
as Fucus, Laminaria, etc. Sometimes applied spec. to Zostera marina.
1551 Turner Herbal i. K iv, Alga..is commonly called in englyshe see wrak.
1654 in N. Riding Rec. V. 161 [Indicted for unjustly taking 10 horse load of
sea-wreck].
1759 Martin Nat. Hist. II. Yorksh. 298 They gather up the Sea-wreck and lay it
in Heaps.
1831 Carlyle Sart. Res. i. ii, Wherein the toughest pearl-diver may dive to his
utmost depth, and return not only with sea-wreck but with true orients.
1906 F. Campbell Dearlove 29 A litter of brown sea-wrack.

b. A particular kind of seaweed.
1611 Cotgr., Sparie, a sea-wrecke.
Ibid., Varech, a sea-wracke, or wrecke.
1658 Sir T. Browne Gard. Cyrus iii, The Spongy leaves of some Sea-wracks..are
over-wrought with Net-work.
1681 Grew Mus¾um ii. ¤v. ii. 248 The Bearded Sea-Wrack. Fucus capillaris
tinctorius.
1846 Lindley Veget. Kingd. 145 Zosterace¾.Sea wracks.
1852 Th. Ross tr. Humboldt<cq>s Trav. I. i. 33 To rank it provisionally among
the sea-wracks.



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Silk the Precursor?
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:08:50 

Something that hasn't attracted much comment as yet is
the simple question: why, thematically speaking, does
Wolfe include a crossover to Urth in IN GREEN'S
JUNGLES, and, apparently, another in RETURN TO THE
WHORL? Knowing of Urth may enrich our readings of THE
BOOK OF THE SHORT SUN, but does knowledge of SHORT SUN
enrich our understanding of Urth, of THE BOOK OF THE
NEW SUN? I'd like to postulate that the answer is yes,
in a quite specific way.

I commented a while back on the likelihood that Horn
et al visit Urth in IGJ on the day of Severian's
swimming expedition at the start of THE SHADOW OF THE
TORTURER. Quite a few people have concurred. Some
mention has also been made of parallels between
Silk/Horn and Severian: the wielding of a numinous
black sword, the Claw-style light given to Horn by the
Neighbour on Green, the lochage concluding that Horn
is a Master of the Torturers' Guild. What I infer from
all this is that the career of Silk/Horn is the
template for Severian's career: the Hierodules and
others shape Severian's life to resemble Silk/Horn's,
because the latter's progressively benevolent pattern
will make Severian a likely bringer of the New Sun.
Silk/Horn is Severian's precursor: his arrival on
Urth, just as the action of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN
commences, is the inspiration the higher powers need
for their successful manipulation of Severian's
timeline. 

__________________________________________________
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From: "Alice Turner" <pei047@attglobal.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n039
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:52:57 

Said Dr. Gevers:

> I commented a while back on the likelihood that Horn
> et al visit Urth in IGJ on the day of Severian's
> swimming expedition at the start of THE SHADOW OF THE
> TORTURER. Quite a few people have concurred. Some
> mention has also been made of parallels between
> Silk/Horn and Severian: the wielding of a numinous
> black sword, the Claw-style light given to Horn by the
> Neighbour on Green, the lochage concluding that Horn
> is a Master of the Torturers' Guild. What I infer from
> all this is that the career of Silk/Horn is the
> template for Severian's career: the Hierodules and
> others shape Severian's life to resemble Silk/Horn's,
> because the latter's progressively benevolent pattern
> will make Severian a likely bringer of the New Sun.
> Silk/Horn is Severian's precursor: his arrival on
> Urth, just as the action of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN
> commences, is the inspiration the higher powers need
> for their successful manipulation of Severian's
> timeline.

I'm not sure about the swimming expedition, though it's perfectly
possible and nicely tidy. Nor does Sev's life seem to me to resemble
Silk/Horn's in any real way (other than within the necessary confines of
an adventure fantasy). But I am sure that Silk/Horn's visit to Urth will
be remembered as a visit from the Conciliator exactly because of the
parallel clues you cite. Legend will thus conflate them (unbeknownst to
Sev, of course, at least so far as we know). It remains to be seen
whether any further conflation will occur--it seems to me that it would
be damn difficult to do in the course of a single book to come. But I
love surprises.

-alga


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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Seawrack's Real Name
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:51:10 

For a long time now I have been trying to figure out Seawrack's real name.

That Seawrack isn't her real name is revealed to us very early on in BLUE,
when Horn first confides, "the truth is that her name, which was no word of
the Common Tongue, baffled me, and that Seawrack was near to it in sound and
seemed to suit her very well."

Later, Horn tells Babbie that he must not harm their new shipmate:

*****

 "...I tired to pronounce the name the goddess had used, and the young woman
who bore it laughed nervously.

"I can't say that, "I told her. "Is it all right if I call you Seawrack?"

*****

Armed with these clues, I subsequently drew up the following parameters:

1. Her name is not in the Common Tongue (i.e., English), so we're talking
another language here--thus recalling the various personages we've met in
the Long and Short Sun series with names of Arabic, Gaelic, Italian, Dutch
or Indian extraction (among others).

2. It must be incredibly difficult to pronounce. Given that Horn seems to
have little trouble saying Thelxiepeia and Sphigx, it's likely to be a
genuine tongue-twister.

3. Her name must sound something like Seawrack, but not too much so or Horn
would be able to pronounce it more readily.

4. Given the naming convention for women of the Whorl (since I believe
Seawrack is a special talent), the name should be floral, with a possible
nod to something in the broader seaweed family.

Now even before alga's rather serendipitous discovery about the
algae-seawrack connection, I was operating under the assumption that
Seawrack was almost certainly named after a member of the Cyanophyta. This
is because of its more common name: Blue Green Algae. Unfortunately, though
I looked through more taxonomy books and databases than I care to think
about, I could not find anything that resembled "Seawrack" in either
Latinate binomial or common forms (seaweed has a long and pervasive history
in the cookbooks and pharmacopeiae of the world--hence a plethora of folks
names for almost all varieties).

Disappointed, but undaunted, I moved on to the Rhodophyta, figuring that
perhaps since the Whorl hailed from a Red Sun system, the red algae would be
potent hunting ground.

No such luck.

Onward to the Phaeophycota, the unattractive brown algae. Then again its
Laminara genus is cited in the OED under entry 2 of sea-wrack as a major
form thereof. And thus I discovered Laminaria hyperborea, a seaweed with an
extensive list of folk names, among which I list the following: sea rods,
mayweed, sgothach, murach foghmhair, and so on and so forth--and then last,
but not least, screadhbhuidhe.

Funny word, screadhbhuidhe.

It's Irish and pronouncing it may well give your tongue a hernia.

Something like: Shkreavwiyeh (or ...vweeyeh)

At least its vowel sounds approximate those in sea-wrack, and it has an
initial 's'.

So could Seawrack's real name be Screadhbhuidhe?

To review: (1) it's not in the Common Tongue; (2) it's difficult to
pronounce; (3) it sounds (sorta) like Seawrack; (4) it's floral and has the
bonus OED association with Laminarian sea-wrack. (5) its Irishness may link
back to Mainframe, whose fliers' names derived from similar roots.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm satisfied.

Robert Borski






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From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Seawrack's Real Name
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:13:58 +0100

At 12:51 2000-09-08 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:
>So could Seawrack's real name be Screadhbhuidhe?
>
>To review: (1) it's not in the Common Tongue; (2) it's difficult to
>pronounce; (3) it sounds (sorta) like Seawrack; (4) it's floral and has the
>bonus OED association with Laminarian sea-wrack. (5) its Irishness may link
>back to Mainframe, whose fliers' names derived from similar roots.
>
>Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm satisfied.

It's fairly convincing - I'm certainly not going to try saying it
out loud, especially while I'm in the office! A good piece of work.

So, does that mean the Flyers made it to Blue? One would hope they
had, and they would hardly have spent all this time idly watching
the Whorl disintegrate around them. Fascinating!

SBear.


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Seawrack's Real Name
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:39:09 

Robert,

You're suggestion sounds much better than what I kept trying to make work
somehow.  The Latin name for Seawrack/Bladderwrack is Fucus vesiculosus.
Doesn't sound hard to pronounce or anything like Seawrack <grin>.  I'll go
with your choice of screadhbhuidhe.


Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: William Ansley <wansley@warwick.net>
Subject: Re: (whorl) Seawrack's Real Name
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:36:07 

At 12:51 PM -0500 9/8/00, Robert Borski wrote:

>So could Seawrack's real name be Screadhbhuidhe?

Robert,

You make an intriguing and even convincing case. It's nice to see you 
using your powers for goodness instead of evil. <G>


-- 
William Ansley

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Rereading IGJ and of course having more questions
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:55:57 

p.37  When Fava asks Incanto to play the game he says not if it involved
certain physical activities.  Fava responds "Oh, I can't run."

p.45 Mora's Story (The GIant's Daughter).  Mora says one girl was good at
running and jumping (Mora?).  One girl was good at math and composition
(Fava?).

Question:  How can an inhuma be good at composition, writing with a delicate
tool?  I've seen examples of inhumi absorbing personalities, does this mean
they can absorb abilities (composition in the common tongue) also?

p.59  Scylla talks through Oreb saying "Help me!"  Who later says "Watch
out!"  Oreb?  Another rider.  My question is how much personality is truly
Oreb's?  Is it only when he says things like "Fish heads?"  since that
obviously isn't a rider.  Rider's aren't concerned about the body's natural
needs re:Chenille's sunburn.  Also "No Cut" is obviously Oreb's thoughts.
But can Oreb think to the level of "watch out?" on his own?

p,60  Incanto says inhumi do not like to use tools or use them skillfully.
Once again how can Fava write then?

p.63 "What did you want with your brother?" the man of the Vanished People
asked him.  And he said that he had hoped to bury the corpse and pray for
the dead man's spirit.  "So I feared..."

Why did the Neighbor fear that Horn would try to do this??




Dennis/Endy
http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm



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From: "Christoph Mnemonic" <mrmnemonic@hotmail.com>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Endymion9's IGJ Questions
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 22:34:30 EDT

>p.37  When Fava asks Incanto to play the game he says not if it involved
>certain physical activities.  Fava responds "Oh, I can't run."
>p.45 Mora's Story (The GIant's Daughter).  Mora says one girl was good >at
>running and jumping (Mora?).  One girl was good at math and composition
>(Fava?).

>Question:  How can an inhuma be good at composition, writing with a 
> >delicate
>tool?  I've seen examples of inhumi absorbing personalities, does this 
> >mean
>they can absorb abilities (composition in the common tongue) also?

As we all know, practice makes perfect.  Also, Fava is said to be much older 
than she looks, even older than Inclito's mother, so it's likely she's been 
at it for quite a while

>p.59  Scylla talks through Oreb saying "Help me!"  Who later says "Watch
>out!"  Oreb?  Another rider.  My question is how much personality is >truly
>Oreb's?  Is it only when he says things like "Fish heads?"  since that
>obviously isn't a rider.  Rider's aren't concerned about the body's 
> >natural
>needs re:Chenille's sunburn.  Also "No Cut" is obviously Oreb's >thoughts.
>But can Oreb think to the level of "watch out?" on his own?

I would say that there is much more to Oreb than "fish heads?" and "no cut". 
  Twice in IGJ Horn asks Oreb to find something, and he does (The altar and 
a way for his horde to pass a swamp).  Obviously, there can't be a rider on 
Oreb _all_ the time, so I believe that much of what we hear is Oreb's 
personality, rather than a God.

>p,60  Incanto says inhumi do not like to use tools or use them >skillfully.
>Once again how can Fava write then?

Practice, practice, practive

>p.63 "What did you want with your brother?" the man of the Vanished >People
>asked him.  And he said that he had hoped to bury the corpse and pray >for
>the dead man's spirit.  "So I feared..."

Not a bloody clue.



- Mnemonic
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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Re: Endymion's question (or: He ain't heavy, I'm my brother.)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:58:18 

Endymion having written:

<p.63 "What did you want with your brother?" the man of the Vanished People
asked him.  And he said that he had hoped to bury the corpse and pray for
the dead man's spirit.  "So I feared..."

<Why did the Neighbor fear that Horn would try to do this??>

Here's my interpretation, but it involves a little bit more than the few
sentences you cite.

Because when earlier on page 63 the Neighbor says, "There are two of you,"
Horn assumes he's talking about both himself and the cadaver in the river,
whereas I believe he's actually referring only to Horn, who has some sort of
dual aspect (just like the Neighbors). A transformation has happened when
Horn was trapped in the island pit, I contend, and the Neighbors appear
responsible. Here perhaps the Christian analogy works well: Jesus the man is
crucified on the cross, but it's Christ the God who emerges from the tomb.
Similarly for Horn, who emerges from the pit as Other: something-plus-Horn,
who's able to transport himself across dreamscapes and create swords out of
thin air, etc., etc.

This Other then may be "the brother" referred to by the Neighbor, who fears
Horn will attempt to sever himself from his own human roots; or it may
simply be the cadaver in the river, who, if Horn takes the time to bury and
pray over, will delay his sewer-cleaning mission. "It's the past holding
on," as the old blind man tells him shortly--whereas Horn, in the hopeful
mindset of the Neighbor, needs to move on and fulfill his larger-than-human
destiny.

Robert Borski








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From: akt@attglobal.net
Subject: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n041
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:40:49 

> From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
> p.37  When Fava asks Incanto to play the game he says not if it
involved
> certain physical activities.  Fava responds "Oh, I can't run."
>
> p.45 Mora's Story (The GIant's Daughter).  Mora says one girl was good
at
> running and jumping (Mora?).  One girl was good at math and
composition
> (Fava?).
>
> Question:  How can an inhuma be good at composition, writing with a
delicate
> tool?  I've seen examples of inhumi absorbing personalities, does this
mean
> they can absorb abilities (composition in the common tongue) also?

Yes, I noticed this too; I put it down to authorial slip-up. She is good
at story-telling, though, thus composition in the larger sense.

> p.59  Scylla talks through Oreb saying "Help me!"  Who later says
"Watch
> out!"  Oreb?  Another rider.  My question is how much personality is
truly
> Oreb's?  Is it only when he says things like "Fish heads?"  since that
> obviously isn't a rider.  Rider's aren't concerned about the body's
natural
> needs re:Chenille's sunburn.  Also "No Cut" is obviously Oreb's
thoughts.
> But can Oreb think to the level of "watch out?" on his own?

Scylla isn't riding Oreb here. The voice crying "Help me" is in Horn's
dream; she haunts his dreams, as he tells us many times. The voice is
precisely like Oreb's, but that is true with dream voices. We have no
actual proof that Oreb says anything but "Watch out!" Not only have we
seen (and heard) him utter warnings before, Horn actually comments that
he "so often does" on this page.

I admit that this argument is somewhat weakened by "The Night Chough,"
which I will mail tomorrow. I kept forgetting to take it to the office
last week--sorry.

> p,60  Incanto says inhumi do not like to use tools or use them
skillfully.
> Once again how can Fava write then?
>
> p.63 "What did you want with your brother?" the man of the Vanished
People
> asked him.  And he said that he had hoped to bury the corpse and pray
for
> the dead man's spirit.  "So I feared..."
>
> Why did the Neighbor fear that Horn would try to do this??

Hmm. Horn's task is to work as quickly as possible to clear the sewer in
a rough, even brutal fashion; there is no time for burying and praying.
I think that is all the Neighbor means.

-alga


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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Rereading IGJ notes (part 2)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:52:33 

First to Robert and alga, I can see that the Neighbor didn't want Horn to be
so overwhelmed with grief and duty that he would spend his time burying the
dead instead of clearing the sewer.  It's just hard not to expect some
deeper meaning from Wolfe behind every bush <grin>.

Robert, also I agree about the dual nature of Horn.  I made the mistake of
thinking it was Horn/Silk but when reading your post realized Silk wasn't in
the picture yet.  So when Horn/Silk occurs the Neighbor would see three?
I'm guessing that anyway.  Not sure who the Other is unless maybe The
Outsider.

p.69  Horn says about Bricco returning home, "But he couldn't."  Is this
where he got into Fava's story?  Changed it?

Old houses that nobody wants to live in, Mora says.  More evidence of
Neighbor techology?  When I first read of Neighbor's ruins forcing Borsat to
leave (in OBW) I thought it was like a home security system.  Now I am
beginning to suspect that the ruins contain technology that enables the
Neighbors visits (portals/mirrors).  Possibly no one wants to remain in the
homes because of some type of ultrasonic sound that they can't hear but
irritates them/makes them uncomfortable.  That along with fear of the
Neighbors/unknown could convince them the house didn't want them to remain
inside.

p.71  Just noticed the theme of TBOtSS theme once again presented..."Love is
better than hate, anger or greed."

Incanto cleaned his plate.  So he did eat unless he dumped it somewhere
unseen.

p.75 found the answer to my earlier question of why Horn didn't proceed to
the Lizard with Evensong.

p.76  Horn comments that Fava can't possibly do well in penmanship, although
composition (what you say) and penmanship (how clearly you print it) are two
different skills and probably graded differently.




Dennis/Endy
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From: shannon wilde <swilde_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Oreb Defense, mostly
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:55:26 

Now, Endymion, I can't just sit by and hear Oreb's
unassisted intellect maligned.  For example, "Not
cut!" is often interpretable as a general moral
advisory, though perhaps he's picked up a bit of
outsider influence.  And of course the LS scene where
Oreb begins learning "God's ways!" from Silk (and
expresses his very personal ideas about the subject)
is convincing that the bird is much brighter than his
plumage, but speech impaired. Obvious ranting, but I
love Oreb too=) 
  Now Babbie still puzzles me.  Oh heck, the whole SS
to date gives me fits now and again.  But
"screadhbhuidhe," wow, thank you Robert Borski. Really
feels sorta "Annese" too.

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From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@charter.net>
Subject: (whorl) Return to the Whorl: Early Predictions
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:29:00 

While Horn is still in Gaon as Rajan, a fortune-teller comes and makes a
number of predictions about what is yet to transpire in his life. Writes
Horn: "It was the usual mix of flattery and menace--I would lead three towns
not my own to victory, would be tried for my life, would return as a
stranger to my sons' native place, find new love, and so on and so forth. I
will not put myself to the trouble of recording the entire rigamarole. When
he had finished I asked how I--or anyone whose future he foretold--might
know that his prophecies were valid; and he solemnly declared that the stars
themselves confirmed them."

Obviously, the stars have accorded themselves very well, and no doubt the
other events mentioned by the soothsayer will come to pass in RETURN TO THE
WHORL. But to the above list I'd like to append my own early speculations;
some build on theories I've already elaborated upon or had published
elsewhere, others are the result of half-baked notions that never quite
completely jelled; still others are pure fancy, the stuff of the coveted
Borski award. You should take them with the same grain of salt as the
Gaonese when told about the astral veracity of the fortune-teller's
divinations. ("Everybody laughed.")

Quadrifons, allegedly, has four faces. I predict an ontogenic quartet of
ape, shaman, scientist (complete with bug-eyed glasses), and robot. The
crossroads with which he's associated is actually the juncture of the New
and Short Sun series.

The Neighbors will have either two heads or be Janus-faced, linking them to
Typhon the First, galactic homeboy returned. Alternate theory: some of them
look like Horn. This is because Horn was purposely drawn by Seawrack's
singing to sexually assault her--not the kind of special talent a sane
person would desire, but one which does work to provide the Mother/Scylla
and her exiled Mainframe cabal (the people in the underwater boats) with
genetic material to work from. This artificial propagation ("My name is
Horn, also") may well explain the Neighbor's quasi-mysterious remark about
how "the Mother" is one of the sea goddess' name. I.e., Scylla's their
clonatrice.

We will meet the oft-mentioned blind Pig, and the lesser mentioned Hound,
Patera Grig and Tansy. Babbie, when he shows up, will have a defective or
mending eye, and Horn will venture something to the effect that Babbie must
have injured it in a fight with another Blue beast or scratched it on a
thorn in his intercontinental travails.

Severian's sister, when met, will be told to fetch Incanto & Company
something to eat or drink, and the Cumaean may be present.

The fact that the inhumi don't fly from Green to Blue and/or can breed on
the latter are components of the Great Secret, but not its crux.

Robert Borski




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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com>
Subject: (whorl) Hartwell his prophecy
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:16:37 

I recently asked David Hartwell whether RETURN TO THE
WHORL concludes the Urth/Whorl Cycle definitively.
This is all he would say:

"My response, not from knowledge but intuition, is
that there will someday be another Urth book or story."

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From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: (whorl) Oreb & Scylla
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:32:29 

Thanks to alga, I read "The Night Chough."

The Scylla element there is indisputable, but it hasn't convinced me
that the other suggested places in LONG/SHORT sun are instances of
Scylla possessing Oreb.  It seems to me that if those are meant to be
clues to that, then they are SO subtle that it's underhanded even for
Wolfe--it would almost require that you read this fairly obscure story
to get what would then, Robert seems to be suggesting, be a major plot
point of the series.


--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) More IGJ reread thoughts
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:32:48 

IGJ, in Fava's second story she implies she was born not long before Horn's
leader (Horn?) walked by.  If that was Fava how can she be "much older" as
some have implied here when explaining how she learned to write, etc.  She
is only a few years old according to this story.

Or...is there an alternative explanation.  Did Fava enter and change Horn's
story (as we heard it) like Horn did to Fava's story earlier.  Is that what
was going on when she told the story one way (I talked to the leader) and
Horn corrected/changed? it later (saying it shook the baby inhuma and forced
it to speak "Mee", etc.)??

The trees?
OBW p.82  Mention of trees/inhumi connection?
IGJ p.124 The trees leaned closer and wept?

What is the Green trees to inhumi connection?

And just noticed again how much i LOVE Oreb!!

p.105 is a perfect example.  "Bird shade"
He makes me laugh so often.  I really mourned and didn't fully enjoy "Exodus
From the Long Sun" because Oreb seemed to be suplanted by that talking cat
creature (yuck). <grin>.



Dennis/Endy
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From: "Endymion9" <endymion9@mindspring.com>
Subject: (whorl) Fava's age
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:43:08 

Still progressing through IGJ for the second time and came across this
passage today:

p.146.  Fava talks of her life back on the Whorl in Grandecitta...of having
periods and getting or pretending to get charms from stregas or stregos to
ward off the pain of the period.  This is obviously not Fava's memory but
Saleca's.  So the inhumi definitely absorb memories.  Fava seems to be
having the same type identity crisis telling this remembrance as Horn does
at times.

So far I still believe Fava was born around the time or shortly after Horn
arrived on Green.  Horn's spirit went to the Whorl and obviously returned on
a lander to Blue.  I am guessing Fava crossed during the conjunction that
occurred after Horn left Lizard but before he arrived in Blanko.


Dennis/Endy
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