From: "J. Schultz" <jschultz@wcnet.org>
Subject: (urth) Hello, and a rehash of kimleesoong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:08:04 


[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I'm extremly excited to join the group and this is my first posting.  =
It's always a great thrill to see people discussing a subject you really =
enjoy and I feel a sort of homecoming and kindred to you all, even =
though I hardly know you.

Forgive me for rehashing old subjects, but I have been reading the =
recent archives and feel I can add to your discussion on the subject of =
Jonas, kimleesoong, and the age of the planet Urth.

First I will touch on my ideas of how far in the future Urth is.  It has =
always been my contention that as Ushas had replaced Urth after the =
cataclysm, Urth had replaced Earth after some terreble cataclysm befell =
it.  As in a nuclear war, a few survivors would exist in a sort of dark =
age untill a time where civilization could be rebuilt.  While their =
traditions would have echoes of something familliar the traditions would =
be shaped by their new surroundings.  Before the cataclysm Earth had =
definitly achieved starship travle and probably became a stellar empire. =
 After the cataclysm this empire became fragmented.  The exultants, =
(again, more of a feeling than any hard fact in the book) headed by =
Typhon, returned to Earth (now Urth) in an attempt to return the empire =
to its final glory bringing with them all manner of machines and relics =
from the early days of super technology.  The exultants are way too =
similar to humans to be any sort of alien race.  I see them as being the =
genetic outcome of inbreeding within the aristocracy over hundreds =
(thousands?) of years to create an offshoot of humanity with desirable =
traits.  (picture them as the Great Danes or Labradors of the human =
world)  Being cut off from Urth would only heighten their unique =
genetics.=20

We find many things familar that Jonas also finds familar.  Example: The =
name kimleesoong, the city of Athens and the story of Theseus, the =
practice of kingship in the middle ages, among others.  Obviously being =
a sailor and a robot he is not from our time, yet he is also not so far =
in the future to live at a time when Korea has been forgotton.  It is my =
contention that he is from a time before the cataclysm, before Typhon =
and Ymar and every other character mentioned.  Kim Lee Soong is also =
from this time and is in the same prediciment as Jonas, having returned =
to find no starports, and is forced to crash land.  Kim is NOT Hethor.  =
We are told all in the antechamber are decendents from ONE mythic =
figure, kimleesoong.  Whether they all actually true descendents is a =
moot point -- they all have come to beleive they are seventh generation =
descendents just as their parents have.  Any family spending more than a =
few generations in the antechamber would come to believe they are =
seventh generation descendents of kimleesoong.  This kimleesoong =
obviously has a myth surrounding him, being the Adam figure of the =
Antechamber and we hear about this myth from the little girl.  She says =
"When the navigator was buried there were black wagons and people in =
black clothes walking." chap XVI.  That's right, kimleesoong IS the =
navigator, and the navigator is dead.  We are not told they are =
descended from 'a crew', we are told they are descended from a single =
individual the only other mythic figure we hear about is 'the navigator' =
and I believe they are the same person.

Is Jonas Korean?  I don't think so.  He states that Kim Lee Soong is a =
name that was common when we was 'a boy' (new robot) in places 'now =
under the water' (Korea).  He also says that Jonas was also a  common =
name of this time.  Jonas is NOT a Korean name!  I really believe that =
if Jonas was Korean, Wolfe would have given him a Korean name.  Jonas =
tells us he was born to the south on the coast and we have no reason to =
believe otherwise.  If the Commonwealth is in South America, then Jonas =
is from S. Am at a time far in the past.  Hell, English can be nasally =
and monosylabic at times, we don't know what they speak in the =
Commonwealth.

Finally, the reasons for Jonas' dementia have been guessed at.  Someone =
mentioned that maybe he had found the survivors of his ship and realizes =
that they are far removed from those he once knew.  I don't agree and =
have a different theory.  Jonas states his mission in chap XVIII:  "...I =
am leaving you.  Now I have the chance, and it is the chance I sought =
for years as I went up and down the seven continents of this world =
seeking the Hierodules and tinkering with clumsy mechanisms."  Jonas =
crashes and his only goal has been to return to the stars.  Urth holds =
nothing for him any more, it is not the place he once knew.  The only =
reason he'll come back once he is repaired is to retrieve Jolenta.  Then =
why does Jonas go crazy in the antechamber?  Or as he puts it "I feel as =
if I were waking up...  I think perhaps I'm going sane, and that is as =
bad or worse."  Jonas has come to a realization.  "Remember, years =
before I met you I had become one of you."  Jonas has been in a trance =
all this time, almost believing the lie he has created, that he is at =
home on Urth and one of its people.  Jonas finally comes to the =
realization that he doesn't belong in the antechamber.  For him, all of =
Urth is an antechamber and when he talks of escaping he is talking about =
the confines of Urth as much as the confines of the antechamber.  Jonas =
sees (and I presume Wolfe intended us to see as well) that the =
antechamber is a small replica of Urth.  Jonas, when speaking of the =
antechamber, could just as well be describing all of Urth when he says, =
"Externally they have been shaped completely by this place where they =
have spent all their lives. Yet beneath that are...  Family memories... =
traditions... that have been handed down to them, generation to =
generation, from the original prisoners from whom they are descended.  =
They don't know what some of the words mean any longer, but they cling =
to the traditions, to the stories, because those are all they have; the =
stories and their names."  Wolfe is not just using the antechamber as a =
cute plot device, he is using it to shed further light on the nature of =
Urth.  All they have are the STORIES and the NAMES, two themes that run =
deep in the Urth cycle.  When Jonas makes the connection he looses it =
and realizes he has to escape, make himself whole, because he has been =
broken for a long time.

Well, how's that for a first post, feel free to pick me apart, I love =
discussion and will enjoy speaking with the group.  As a final side note =
I'd like to say something about Jolenta and Jonas.  He loves her, but =
why?  Their names both begin with JO and both are half human and half =
creation.  I always thought that Wolfe did that on purpose I don't know =
if he was trying to say anything deeper.  I'll give it some thought.  =
Untill next time....

hmm... nickname?  Call me FunkMonkey, I'm sure its a real animal!

Sincerely,
FunkMonkey

PS.  I havn't read the last book of the Whorl so I'm not subscribed to =
the other list.  I would surely not have the self control not to read =
all the surprise twists revealed in your posts.


=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm extremly excited to join the =
group and this=20
is my first posting.&nbsp; It's always a great thrill to see people =
discussing a=20
subject you really enjoy and I feel a sort of homecoming and kindred to =
you all,=20
even though I hardly know you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Forgive me for rehashing old =
subjects, but I=20
have been reading the recent archives and feel I can add to your =
discussion on=20
the subject of Jonas, kimleesoong, and the age of the planet =
Urth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>First I will touch on my ideas of =
how far in the=20
future Urth is.&nbsp; It has always been my contention that as Ushas had =

replaced Urth after the cataclysm, Urth had replaced Earth after some =
terreble=20
cataclysm befell it.&nbsp; As in a nuclear war, a few survivors would =
exist in a=20
sort of dark age untill a time where civilization could be =
rebuilt.&nbsp; While=20
their traditions would have echoes of something familliar the traditions =
would=20
be shaped by their new surroundings.&nbsp; Before the cataclysm Earth =
had=20
definitly achieved starship travle and probably became a stellar =
empire.&nbsp;=20
After the cataclysm this empire became fragmented.&nbsp; The exultants, =
(again,=20
more of a feeling than any hard fact in the book) headed by Typhon, =
returned to=20
Earth (now Urth) in an attempt to return the empire to its final glory =
bringing=20
with them all manner of machines and relics from the early days of super =

technology.&nbsp; The exultants are way too similar to humans to be any =
sort of=20
alien race.&nbsp; I see them as being the genetic outcome of inbreeding =
within=20
the aristocracy over hundreds (thousands?) of years to create an =
offshoot of=20
humanity with desirable traits.&nbsp; (picture them as the Great Danes =
or=20
Labradors of the human world)&nbsp; Being cut off from Urth would only =
heighten=20
their unique genetics.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We find many things familar that Jonas also finds=20
familar.&nbsp; Example: The name kimleesoong, the city of Athens and the =
story=20
of Theseus, the practice of kingship in the middle ages, among =
others.&nbsp;=20
Obviously being a sailor and a robot he is not from our time, yet he is =
also not=20
so far in the future to live at a time when Korea has been =
forgotton.&nbsp; It=20
is my contention that he is from a time before the cataclysm, before =
Typhon and=20
Ymar and every other character mentioned.&nbsp; Kim Lee Soong is also =
from this=20
time and is in the same prediciment as Jonas, having returned to find no =

starports, and is forced to crash land.&nbsp; Kim is NOT Hethor.&nbsp; =
We are=20
told all in the antechamber are decendents from ONE mythic figure,=20
kimleesoong.&nbsp; Whether they all actually true descendents is a moot =
point --=20
they all have come to beleive they are seventh generation descendents =
just as=20
their parents have.&nbsp; Any family spending more than a few =
generations in the=20
antechamber would come to believe they are seventh generation =
descendents of=20
kimleesoong.&nbsp; This kimleesoong obviously has a myth surrounding =
him, being=20
the Adam figure of the Antechamber and we hear about this myth from the =
little=20
girl.&nbsp; She says &quot;When the navigator was buried there were =
black wagons=20
and people in black clothes walking.&quot; chap XVI.&nbsp; That's right, =

kimleesoong IS the navigator, and the navigator is dead.&nbsp; We are =
not told=20
they are descended from 'a crew', we are told they are descended from a =
single=20
individual the only other mythic figure we hear about is 'the navigator' =
and I=20
believe they are the same person.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is Jonas Korean?&nbsp; I don't think so.&nbsp; He =
states that=20
Kim Lee Soong is a name that was common when we was 'a boy' (new robot) =
in=20
places 'now under the water' (Korea).&nbsp; He also says that Jonas was =
also=20
a&nbsp; common name of this time.&nbsp; Jonas is NOT a Korean =
name!&nbsp; I=20
really believe that if Jonas was Korean, Wolfe would have given him a =
Korean=20
name.&nbsp; Jonas tells us he was born to the south on the coast and we =
have no=20
reason to believe otherwise.&nbsp; If the Commonwealth is in South =
America, then=20
Jonas is from S. Am at a time far in the past.&nbsp; Hell, English can =
be=20
nasally and monosylabic at times, we don't know what they speak in the=20
Commonwealth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Finally, the reasons for Jonas' dementia have been =
guessed=20
at.&nbsp; Someone mentioned that maybe he had found the survivors of his =
ship=20
and realizes that they are far removed from those he once knew.&nbsp; I =
don't=20
agree and have a different theory.&nbsp; Jonas states his mission in =
chap=20
XVIII:&nbsp; &quot;...I am leaving you.&nbsp; Now I have the chance, and =
it is=20
the chance I sought for years as I went up and down the seven continents =
of this=20
world seeking the Hierodules and tinkering with clumsy =
mechanisms.&quot;&nbsp;=20
Jonas crashes and his only goal has been to return to the stars.&nbsp; =
Urth=20
holds nothing for him any more, it is not the place he once knew.&nbsp; =
The only=20
reason he'll come back once he is repaired is to retrieve Jolenta.&nbsp; =
Then=20
why does Jonas go crazy in the antechamber?&nbsp; Or as he puts it =
&quot;I feel=20
as if I were waking up...&nbsp; I think perhaps I'm going sane, and that =
is as=20
bad or worse.&quot;&nbsp; Jonas has come to a realization.&nbsp; =
&quot;Remember,=20
years before I met you I had become one of you.&quot;&nbsp; Jonas has =
been in a=20
trance all this time, almost believing the lie he has created, that he =
is at=20
home on Urth and one of its people.&nbsp; Jonas finally comes to the =
realization=20
that he doesn't belong in the antechamber.&nbsp; For him, all of Urth is =
an=20
antechamber and when he talks of escaping he is talking about the =
confines of=20
Urth as much as the confines of the antechamber.&nbsp; Jonas sees (and I =
presume=20
Wolfe intended us to see as well) that the antechamber is a small =
replica of=20
Urth.&nbsp; Jonas, when speaking of the antechamber, could just as well =
be=20
describing all of Urth when he says, &quot;Externally they have been =
shaped=20
completely by this place where they have spent all their lives. Yet =
beneath that=20
are...&nbsp; Family memories... traditions... that have been handed down =
to=20
them, generation to generation, from the original prisoners from whom =
they are=20
descended.&nbsp; They don't know what some of the words mean any longer, =
but=20
they cling to the traditions, to the stories, because those are all they =
have;=20
the stories and their names.&quot;&nbsp; Wolfe is not just using the =
antechamber=20
as a cute plot device, he is using it to shed further light on the =
nature of=20
Urth.&nbsp; All they have are the STORIES and the NAMES, two themes that =
run=20
deep in the Urth cycle.&nbsp; When Jonas makes the connection he looses =
it and=20
realizes he has to escape, make himself whole, because he has been =
broken for a=20
long time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well, how's that for a first post, feel free to pick =
me apart,=20
I love discussion and will enjoy speaking with the group.&nbsp; As a =
final side=20
note I'd like to say something about Jolenta and Jonas.&nbsp; He loves =
her, but=20
why?&nbsp; Their names both begin with JO and both are half human and =
half=20
creation.&nbsp; I always thought that Wolfe did that on purpose I don't =
know if=20
he was trying to say anything deeper.&nbsp; I'll give it some =
thought.&nbsp;=20
Untill next time....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hmm... nickname?&nbsp; Call me =
FunkMonkey, I'm=20
sure its a real animal!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>FunkMonkey</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PS.&nbsp; I havn't read the last book of the Whorl =
so I'm not=20
subscribed to the other list.&nbsp; I would surely not have the self =
control not=20
to read all the surprise twists revealed in your posts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD7462.EB64A2E0--


*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/